The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call the Members to order. Before starting this afternoon, I would like to welcome the parliamentary delegation from the Maldives, who are visiting the Senedd today. So, welcome to you from the Maldives.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Questions to the First Minister is the first item, and the first question is from Angela Burns.

Smoking

Angela Burns AC: 1. Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans to reduce the number of people smoking in Wales? OAQ55018

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Angela Burns for that question, Llywydd.
We remain committed to reducing the percentage of the Welsh population who smoke to 16 per cent by the end of this calendar year. A post-2020 tobacco control plan is in preparation, deploying all evidence-based techniques to help achieve a tobacco-free Wales.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. And, undoubtedly, Wales has led the UK in banning smoking in public places, which is very welcome. However, 13 years on, latest figures still show that we're failing to address smoking in young people and expectant mothers. Across Wales, 9 per cent of 15 to 16-year-olds smoke, and 30 per cent of teenage mums smoke. Thirty per cent of mums aged between 16 and 19 are smokers at their baby's birth. Now, this obviously has a long-term impact on them, and, of course, their child. And one of the things I've discovered is that not all maternity services have dedicated stop smoking services. Those that do have them have shown a very high success rate. And we have to recognise that teenage mums in particular are very vulnerable to pressures such as body image, they want a tiny baby, there are a lack of role models, and, of course, the demographics sometimes fight against them. And we also know that if children see people smoking around them, they're much more likely to take up smoking.
So, I wondered if you could just outline for me what the Welsh Government could do to ensure that the best practice that does exist where there's a midwife-led stop smoking cessation service in a midwifery unit is spread across Wales, and we can have more midwives that can lead this kind of practice in order to try to cut down on the rates of teenage smoking.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Angela Burns for those supplementary questions. She is right that there is a continuing challenge to reduce the proportion of young women who become pregnant and who carry on smoking. The figures have to be treated with just a small degree of caution, because the percentage is a factor of the fact that the number of teenage pregnancies has fallen so rapidly during the devolution era. So, in the year 2000, there were 495 young women under the age of 16 who became pregnant in Wales, and in 2017, the last year for which we have figures, it was down to 144. And that's a dramatic decline. And amongst the 144, there is a concentration of young people who have particular difficulties and challenges, then, in persuading people to give up smoking.
But the range of services that are there in the NHS are designed to try and make sure that there isn't just one approach. In-hospital services work very well for some young people, but other young people definitely, we know, prefer to use pharmacy-based services, partly because it can be more anonymous; you'd rather go where you weren't so visible to other people. Specially trained midwives have a very important part to play in working with young people in particular, and then working directly with young people is important as well. So, in Pembrokeshire, in the Member's own area, Hywel Dda is doing a particular piece of work with young people who are smokers, trying to learn from them about the things that they would find most effective as forms of intervention to enable them to give up smoking, and that work is going on alongside primary care clusters and specialist midwives.

John Griffiths AC: Thankfully, we've made progress in reducing the numbers smoking in Wales, First Minister, but it still takes a terrible toll on health in Wales, and particularly regarding people living in poverty. I do believe it's important that we make it more and more socially unacceptable to smoke in Wales, and the ban on smoking in enclosed public places has been a big part of that. A recent Action on Smoking and Healthsurvey showed 59 per cent of respondents in favour of a ban on smoking in city and town centres. Is that something Welsh Government would consider in terms of making further progress?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank John Griffiths for that, and I completely agree with him—it was a point made by Angela Burns as well—that social acceptability of smoking leads toyoung people, in particular, becoming smokers. We have seen a huge cultural shift in the last 20 or 30 years in social acceptability. My colleague Vaughan Gethingwill bring forward regulations this year to enforce a statutory ban on smoking in hospital grounds, school playgrounds, play areas outside schools, and in unenclosed premises in childcare facilities. And then we will move on to the next phase of our determination to make smoking something that we bear down on, that we reduce, and that we prevent young people from thinking that it's a normal way of growing up. And unenclosed premises, in town and city centres, is one of the things that we will definitely be moving to act on next.

Devolution of Taxes

Mike Hedges AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on further devolution of taxes as recommended by the Silk Commission? OAQ54983

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that. Llywydd, while land transfer tax, landfill disposals tax and Welsh rates of income tax have been successfully absorbed as responsibilities devolved to Wales, the UK Government continues to reject the Silk recommendation in relation to air passenger duty, despite all the evidence that supports its devolution.

Mike Hedges AC: I just wanted to talk about air passenger duty and aggregates levy. The reason why we couldn't have aggregates levy being devolved ends at one second past 11 p.m. on Friday. So, can we expect, at two seconds past 11 p.m., aggregates levy to be devolved? And have you had any further discussion regarding the devolution of air passenger duty?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike for both of those examples, both of which were considered by the Silk Commission. As Mike Hedges knows, and has alluded to, Llywydd, aggregates levy was subject to extensive litigation at European and domestic levels. That was all resolved in February of last year, and the UK Government announced a review of aggregates levy, and that was due to be published in the autumn. It wasn't published because of the general election; we now expect that that review will be published alongside the budget on 11 March. There is a strong synergy between the environmental responsibilities that are discharged here in Wales and aggregates levy, which is, after all, an environmental tax, and putting the two sets of responsibilities together would make very good sense. There are some complexities, which we expect the review to address. It's a declining tax, and the Welsh share of UK aggregates may also be declining. There are significant data issues with it, and, of course, it will bring no more money to Wales, because any money that we got through aggregates levy would just be subject to a reduction in the block grant. Nevertheless, the case for it is a strong one, and we look forward to the publication of the review.
As far as air passenger duty is concerned, the UK Government has announced a review there as well, as part of its Flybe activities, and that too is due to be published alongside the March budget. None of that requires further justification for devolution of APD to Wales. The case was thoroughly made in Silk, and it was thoroughly made in the Welsh Affairs Select Committee report, under the chairing of David T.C. Davies, now the Deputy Minister in the Wales Office. We look forward to the UK Government giving to Wales what has already been devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland; there simply is no excuse for that tax not coming to Wales, as the Silk commission recommended.

Darren Millar AC: First Minister, your wing of the Labour Party is hardly known for cutting taxes. In fact, you're more considered to be an individual that might want to raise them. What assurances can you give to the hard-working people of Wales, and, indeed, those businesses across Wales, that, if further taxes are devolved to Wales, your Government's not going to put them up rather than cutting the burden for people to get on with their lives?

Mark Drakeford AC: I give this guarantee, Llywydd, that any taxes that come to Wales will be carefully considered, and that any decisions are made here, on the floor of the National Assembly—that they're not made by Government, they're made by the National Assembly. And when it came to land transfer tax, of course, we cut that tax for the vast majority of house purchases here in Wales. We cut the business element of land transfer tax, so that the vast majority of small businesses pay a lower rate of tax here in Wales than they did when his Government was in charge of it. People will look at what we did, rather than what the Member alleges, and find that our actions speak a lot louder than his words.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm sure the First Minister will agree with me that it's slightly curious that the Conservative Party always talk about tax as if it was something dreadful. If we didn't pay taxes we wouldn't have public services. We all know that we need investment in our public services going forward.
In response to Mike Hedges, the First Minister mentioned the air passenger duty and the aggregates levy. I know that the First Minister will, like I do, regret what is going to happen on Friday night this week, but it is going to happen. Can I suggest to the First Minister that this may be an opportunity to look at some other taxes that we might want to seek devolution of, over and above Silk? I'm thinking particularly of perhaps the capacity to vary corporation tax, which wouldn't have been possible inside the European Union; seeking possibly the capacity to vary VAT, which might be able to help grow some of our own local and indigenous businesses.
I realise, of course, Llywydd, that the First Minister in this sense is at the mercy of the Conservative Government in London. But I wonder if he would agree with me that with what is bound to be a challenging time economically for Wales we ought to be being ambitious about seeking the levers that we will need to potentially protect our economy from some of the potential negative effects.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Helen Mary Jones for that, and of course I agree with her first contribution. The taxes we pay are the admission charge to a civilised society. If we didn't have taxes and didn't pay them then we wouldn't have the services that we talk about all the time on the floor of this Assembly, and which Members opposite are forever urging further investments and more expenditures for, while at the same time devising plans to deprive us of what we need in order to be able to do so.
I know that Helen Mary Jones will be interested to know that earlier this month Welsh Treasury officials hosted a meeting here in Cardiff involving the Treasury, the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, which was a workshop to look at new common ways in which new taxes could be devolved inside the United Kingdom. And that discussion was a productive one, and it will help in some other practical ways in which new opportunities that might come our way in the future can be navigated through the machinery of the United Kingdom.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, one cannot begin to imagine the grief of parents who suffer the loss of a child. As reported by BBC Wales Investigates last night, an inquest found that the healthcare provided to Sarah Handy contributed to her baby's death in 2017. Her case is one of 140 being reviewed to establish whether mothers and babies were harmed while receiving care at Cwm Taf Morgannwg maternity units. Rebecca Long-Bailey, a Labour leadership candidate, called for a public inquiry into maternity failures at the health board, only to retract her comments later. The Labour leader of Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council says it's 'an absolute scandal' that nobody on the health board has been held to account.He's backing Mrs Handy's call for a criminal investigation. Are you?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I agree with what Adam Price said at the start, that a loss of a child in any circumstances, and even more so in circumstances that might have been preventable, cannot be imagined in the impact that that has in the lives of families.
I've heard calls for a criminal investigation. That will be entirely a matter for the police and not a matter for me, and I'm going to say nothing on that subject this afternoon that could be interpreted in any way as prejudicing the police's ability to discharge their responsibilities.

Adam Price AC: In last night's programme, Andrew Morgan also said that when there were calls for the resignation of Cwm Taf's chief executive, he was asked not to speak out. Do you agree that any attempt to gag an elected representative is totally unacceptable? And will he launch his own investigation to see whether the allegations that Mr Morgan made vis-à-visthe health board are true?
Cwm Taf is not the only health board where there are serious questions. Of course, Betsi Cadwaladr is now in its fifth year of special measures, and it has an alarming rate of patient safety incidents. Between November 2017 and December 2019, there were 520 incidents within Betsi that resulted in death or serious harm. That total is higher than all the other health boards in Wales combined. Now, there is either a serious underlying problem within Betsi or there is severe underreporting elsewhere in Wales. Which is it?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think the leader of RCT is able to speak for himself. I know him very well and hold him in very high regard. He's made no request of me, and I'm sure that he's more than capable of doing so for himself, should he wish to do so.
The figures in Betsi Cadwaladr are, I believe, a sign of a health board in which reporting incidents and learning from them has become part of its culture, and that is something that we want to see everywhere in Wales. We regularly have this exchange on the floor of the Assembly, where we say that we want a learning culture, we say we want a culture in health boards where people are not afraid to speak up and have things recorded, and then when that happens, we have questions that say, 'Oh, everything must be awful, look at the incidents that are reported.' I just don't think we can have it both ways. I think the fact that there are figures in Betsi Cadwaladr that demonstrate that staff are willing to report things shows that there is a culture there now that wants to learn from the way that things are conducted, and that maybe wasn't the case there not that many years ago.

Adam Price AC: Between December 2018 and December 2019—the figures released just today—there were 41 incidents resulting in death registered within Betsi. That's 53 per cent of all such deaths reported by Welsh health boards in total. That's obviously disproportionately high when you consider that health board covers just about 20 per cent of the population of Wales.
If I've understood the First Minister correctly, what he is saying—but he can respond to confirm whether my understanding is correct—is, in response to my question, he seems to be of the view that there is underreporting of serious incidents in the rest of Wales and that there, presumably, are deaths as a result of incidents that are unreported in the rest of Wales, which, of course, was one of the most serious charges in the report into the maternity services in Cwm Taf.
So, is the First Minister saying now that the key failing, the lack of reporting of serious incidents that was at the heart of the problem at Cwm Taf, is actually a general problem in other health boards, apart from Betsi, throughout Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: I must say, Llywydd, I think that is a complete farrago. It's simply building one sort of unsubstantiated assertion on top of another. I said no such thing, nor would I. What I am saying here is that we want a culture in the NHS in Wales where, when things go wrong, people feel empowered to speak up, that things are reported, and things are learned as a result of those reports being made. I want to see that in every part of Wales. And the Member's attempt to try and drag the NHS through the mud once again this afternoon—because that's what he does, and he does it ever so regularly here, he does it very regularly here, he did it again this afternoon—doesn't do him any good, and it certainly doesn't do any good to patients in the Welsh health service.

Leader of the opposition, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, last week, it was reported that the A465 Heads of the Valleys road is facing possible further delays and, as you know, it's already significantly over budget. That road was due to be finished at the end of last year. Could you tell us when the Heads of the Valleys road will be completed, and can you also confirm whether the Welsh Government will be spending any additional resources in excess of the current budget to ensure the road is finally completed?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the timescales for the completion of the road remain as set out in the statement made by my colleague Ken Skates when he last reported this matter to the floor of the National Assembly. Those timescales have not altered. The Minister will make a further statement on progress in completion of that section of the Heads of the Valleys road.
The budget for the completion is beyond what had originally been anticipated. That is partly explained by the challenging topography that the constructors have faced in making their way through one of the biggest gorges that we've ever built a road of this sort through in Wales. There have been disputes between the Welsh Government and the contractor over some of the other costs that have been raised with us, and they remain subject to ongoing arbitration between the parties.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, this particular stretch of road is just one example of many of the frustrations that communities across Wales have had with the Welsh Government's handling of road infrastructure projects. At the end of last year, the Welsh Infrastructure Alliance made it clear in their report that significant investment is required in Wales's trunk road network and more certainty is required on the delivery timescales of schemes set out in the national transport plan—and that's entirely true, First Minister. In west Wales, the continual calls to dual the A40 have simply fallen on deaf ears. And, of course, the decision not to press ahead with a solution to the M4 has once again left communities along that corridor frustrated and annoyed.
In 2011, the Wales Audit Office found that major transport projects had cost substantially more and taken longer to complete than expected, with overspends totalling £226 million. This took place under a Labour Government. First Minister, do you accept that lessons simply haven't been learned from that damning report, and do you recognise the very distressing impact that your Government's mismanagement of road projects is having on people's lives across Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, if I thought for a moment there was a lesson to be learned from the party responsible for the HS2 line and the billions—. He talks to me about £226 million; that's barely a week's overspend in his Government's handling of HS2, where there are billions—billions and billions of pounds. That's a project dreamed up by his party, entirely the responsibility of his party. He thinks that he can come here and criticise us for the way that we conduct things when his party is a scandal across the whole of Europe for the way that it has conducted itself in relation to that transport programme.
He quotes me a report of 2011. In 2011, we were at the very start of the year-by-year slash and burn through the capital programme of this Labour Government by his Government at Westminster. If we had the budget today that we'd had back then, we would be able to do more in a whole range of capital investments here in Wales.
I'm not apologising for the record of the Welsh Government: the Newtown bypass, completed on budget and on time; the work that we are doing in Valleys communities that his party would quite certainly never contemplate spending. In every part of Wales, this Government invests to the very fullest extent that we are able, despite the depredations of austerity that his party has imposed on us. And those things are appreciated—far from his carping away at the way things happen—those things are appreciated in every part of Wales as well.

Paul Davies AC: Well, you should apologise, First Minister, for the mismanagement of this particular project, and you should be apologising to the people of Wales for other projects that your Government has mismanaged. It's a fact that communities are frustrated with the Welsh Government's approach to road infrastructure here in Wales, and there seems, to me, little accountability from Ministers for your Government's mismanagement.
Now, First Minister, you will be aware of plans by Cardiff Council to introduce a congestion charge—or a Valleys tax, as your own Members have called it—to charge non-residents to travel in and out of Cardiff. Now, those plans have been criticised by your colleague the Member for Caerphilly, who has made it clear that the charge should not be brought in unless there are clear alternatives to car use, and that the charge should also apply to Cardiff residents as well. The Member for Blaenau Gwent has rightly called it a Valleys tax.
Now, it's a fact that this scheme needs Welsh Government approval before it can be implemented. So, First Minister, is it your Government's intention to support Cardiff Council and sign off this Valleys tax? Do you genuinely believe that Cardiff's public transport system could handle the significant increase in demand that could come as a result of this proposal? And if you do sign off this proposal, how will you avoid creating an us-and-them environment between the Valleys and the capital?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, lectures from the Member on public transport, from the party that cancelled the electrification of the main line here in Wales—do you remember that? I wonder if the Member remembers. No, I think he doesn't. He's forgotten that his party promised to electrify the main railway line all the way to Swansea, only then to turn to turn its back on the promise that it had made to people in Wales. He wants to ask me about public transport. Let's look at his record, at his party's record, for a moment.
As far as Cardiff Council's proposals are concerned, I am glad that Cardiff city council is responding in an imaginative and determined way to the impact of climate change and the impact of air quality here in our capital city—the most commuted capital anywhere in the United Kingdom. So, I don't think that it is right simply to dismiss proposals that the council has come up with, because they are a serious response to a serious set of issues.
But the Member is right to say that of course there is a responsibility on the Welsh Government to interrogate those proposals in a regional context. That is exactly what the Minister for transport said when those plans were announced. That's why we as a Welsh Government have set up an investigation into demand management, not just in Cardiff, but in the wider region, and the study will look at the benefits and challenges of different demand-management approaches, and we will use that to inform national and regional policy. We deserve, people in Cardiff and people around Cardiff deserve, to look at serious proposals seriously, to look at other alternatives that there may be there, and to do so in the context of the climate change emergency that faces us all. Cardiff's proposals are intended to be a serious response to that situation.

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless AC: Can I wish all Members a happy Brexit day this Friday? Not least the leader of Plaid Cymru, who I commend on the positive approach that he has taken this week.
First Minister, do you support the even more positive approach being taken by the Royal Mint in Llantrisant? For two weeks, they are offering bespoke Brexit tours. I'm looking forward to taking my children to strike their very own Brexit 50p coins, wishing 'Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations'. On Brexit day, the Royal Mint is even opening through the night, with public tours every 15 minutes. With Nathan Gill coming to Llantrisant on Friday to operate the coin press as his final MEP engagement, can I ask the First Minister what you will be doing to mark Brexit day?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I will be chairing a meeting of the Joint Ministerial Committee (European Negotiations) here in Cardiff later this afternoon. It will involve the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. I was very pleased to welcome them to Wales this morning, their first engagement of this sort since the re-established Executive. Michael Gove will represent the United Kingdom Government at this afternoon's meeting. There, we will be having not a tour of a tourist attraction but we will be grappling seriously with the issues that face us as a United Kingdom as we leave the European Union. We will be talking about the strategic priorities for negotiations with the European Union. We will be talking about the way in which devolved administrations can be involved in the setting of mandates and the discharging of them in negotiations. That's what I and the Welsh Government will be focusing on this week and over the weeks and months to come.

Mark Reckless AC: Good. I think the First Minister had announced that he was going to be making a speech on Friday, but I would like to congratulate him about the meeting he has had today, because I think while the UK Government has understandably been focussed on other things, when there hasn't been a Northern Ireland Government, and when the Scottish Government is antagonistic, I think the Welsh Government has taken a lead in thinking through some of these post-Brexit issues and what the appropriate architecture should be for our intra-government liaisons in the UK.
I was pleased to meet Simon Hart in Tŷ Hywel earlier, and I hope that he will also recognise the strong lead that Welsh Government has been giving in this area. Will the First Minister, however, now also pledge to work with the leader of the opposition and with Members opposite to use their influence on UK Government Ministers to help push forward some of the ideas his Government has developed, and on which we all agree?
And could I also ask, in an effort to find common ground, whether he might reconsider the delete-and-replace-all approach to the Conservative Brexit motion tomorrow? It refers only to the potential benefits to Wales of Brexit, and, in trying to find common ground, it speaks relatively non-controversially about new free trade agreements, an immigration system that does not discriminate against non-EU, and a new approach to regional investment. It also calls upon Welsh Government to engage positively with the UK Government. So, I wonder if the First Minister could find his way to supporting it?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member. The Secretaries of State for Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland will all be present at the JMC(EN) this afternoon. I thank the Member for what he said about the proposals that Wales has made to strengthen the way in which the United Kingdom can operate the other side of Brexit. I was glad to be able to discuss those directly with Arlene Foster and Michelle O'Neill this morning, and they will be part of an ongoing discussion about inter-governmental machinery that is discharged at the JMC.
I've been grateful to the leader of the opposition here for a number of opportunities to meet to talk about matters in relation to Brexit, the future of the United Kingdom and other important public policy issues. It has always been the position of these benches—it certainly was under my predecessor—that wherever there are constructive ideas that people want to contribute to these important public debates, of course, we are open to hearing them and to discussing them, and I certainly want to go on doing that into the future. Tomorrow's debate, Llywydd, will, I'm sure, have ample time on the floor of the Assembly for people to express their views.

Supporting People with Autism

Caroline Jones AC: 3. Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans to support people with autism in South Wales West? OAQ55009

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you, Llywydd. Can I begin just by wishing the Member well in her continued recovery from her recent ill health? The integrated autism service is now available in all regions in Wales, supported by the Welsh Government's continued annual investment of £3 million. We will consult on the draft statutory autism code of practice in April of this year.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your kind words, Minister, and thank you for your answer to my question. At a meeting last Friday, despite the measures you outlined, my constituents are still struggling to get the support they need. It's bad enough for families seeking help for the children with autism, but they've highlighted that it can be equally traumatic for adults previously undiagnosed. So, First Minister, what additional measures can you take to improve support for adults on the autism spectrum and also to speed up the diagnosis for adults who are without a firm diagnosis? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that, and I recognise the points that she raises about people who, when they were in childhood, maybe autism wasn't recognised in the way that it is today. And for some people, it's quite late in adult life before the things that matter to them are now being recognised as part of a wider condition. So, our integrated autism service is now available throughout Wales, and as I said in my original answer, Llywydd, the health Minister recently confirmed that the £3 million investment that we had originally made to assist in the establishment of that service is now to be a permanent part of its funding. So that, I think, will help.Some of the work that we have done in helping with the training of front-line primary care clinicians to recognise the autism spectrum and people who may be needing help on it, I think that will go on helping people in that position. And the autism statutory code of practice, which we will publish in April and which we will complete before the end of this Assembly term, focuses on assessment, awareness, access, planning and monitoring, and all of those things are designed to reinforce the service so that adults and young people can be confident that their needs are recognised and responded to in Wales.

Suzy Davies AC: First Minister, not every child in my region with an autistic spectrum condition will need full special educational needs or additional learning needs support, but many do and, in some cases, quite significant support. It's also true that some of those children will experience poor mental health, whether that's unrelated to their autism or as a consequence of the daily challenges they face because of their autism. The education Minister has pledged £7 million towards meeting demand for education support in the current system, and there's an additional £5 million going in from both health and education for the whole-school approach, all of which is extremely welcome. But can you tell me how the £3 million to which you referred in your answer to Caroline Jones will be used to meet the needs of autistic children with poor mental health at all levels in the NHS, not just in primary care? And can you give me a guarantee that no child with an autistic spectrum condition will be turned away from primary mental healthcare due to lack of expertise or training from mental health professionals?

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for those additional questions and for the recognition of the investment that is going into different parts of the service. That's over and above the £20 million that's being invested in the implementation of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. I entirely agree with what Suzy Davies says that not all children on the disorder spectrum will need the same sort of response.
We have developed, over the last three or four years, the particular service for young people with neurodevelopmental difficulties. We're carrying out a capacity-and-demand review of that service because, in a way that I think you could anticipate, when you create a new service then a set of latent demands rises to the surface. So, the service was funded from the beginning to deal with the young people we knew were coming into the system already; we provide a new service, and then a whole number of other young people who hadn't previously been identified come to the surface and need help, and that's why the demand-and-capacity review is being carried out.
Between that, between the things that we are doing in relation to mental health services for young people in schools, allied with what we are doing in relation to the additional learning needs Act, we are creating a web of services that I think are there to create a strong safety net for young people along that spectrum, so that nobody falls between the cracks and everybody's able to find a service that meets their particular needs.

Growing the Visitor Economy in Islwyn

Rhianon Passmore AC: 4. Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans for growing the visitor economy in Islwyn? OAQ55020

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that.
The tourism action plan for 2020-25 was launched last week. Its ambition to extend the tourism sector and the geographical reach of the industry will give new impetus to the many attractions that Islwyn has to offer.

Rhianon Passmore AC: First Minister, thank you. Last week, you and the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Lord Elis-Thomas, unveiled an exciting future for the visitor economy in Wales. The new five-year plan, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the Visitor Economy 2020-25', is backed by a new £10 million fund, brilliant basics, to support the all-important tourism infrastructure that will complement the £50 million Wales tourism investment fund, focusing on high-quality, reputation-changing products.
First Minister, the visitor economy, as you know, is vital to the well-being and future of communities in my constituency of Islwyn and, as such, last week I met with the Deputy Ministers, Lee Waters and Hannah Blythyn, where we discussed, amongst other things, the place of culture and the Welsh Government's commitment to Cwmcarn forest scenic drive in Islwyn, which has been designated a discovery gateway as part of the Welsh Government's Valleys Regional Park discovery gateway.
First Minister, the Welsh Labour Government backs its words with action, and in November, £450,000 was pledged to ensuring the Cwmcarn forest scenic drive will fully reopen in 2020, allowing access to every generation to experience one of Wales's natural wonders. So, First Minister, will you and Deputy Minister, Lee Waters, accept my invite to join the people of Islwyn at Cwmcarn forest scenic drive, and further, will you and the Welsh Government do all you can do to ensure that Wales and the world know that the beautiful Cwmcarn forest drive is once again fully open for business?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank the Member for that probing question on behalf of her constituents in Islwyn. I very much enjoyed the opportunity to be with Dafydd Elis-Thomas at the launch of the tourism action plan in Porthcawl last week. It sets out our ambitions for the tourist industry here in Wales. The Member is absolutely right to point to the Cwmcarn forest scenic drive as an example of the investment that this Welsh Labour Government is making in tourism destinations in all parts of Wales.
When my children were growing up, Llywydd, we were very regular visitors to Cwmcarn because of the way in which it provides such a variety of opportunities for young people to enjoy the wonderful scenery that is there but also all those other opportunities that the scenic drive provides. All the mountain bike routes at Cwmcarn have now been reopened. NRW have submitted planning applications for each of eight recreational areas along the drive. When those are in place as well, alongside the new visitor centre, there will be even more reasons for people to come to Islwynand to enjoy what Cwmcarn has to offer.

Financial Inclusion

Dawn Bowden AC: 5. Will the First Minister provide an update on Welsh Government action to promote financial inclusion in Wales? OAQ55014

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our commitment to promoting financial inclusion is reflected through the £19 million funding we provide to offer people access to affordable financial services and quality-assured information and advice. This means people are able to make more informed financial decisions and better manage their finances.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, First Minister, and can I welcome the range of actions that you set out there, which I know assist many of my constituents in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney? Many of us on this side of the Chamber also remember the actions of the last UK Labour Government in establishing child trust funds, and, of course, the additional support for this provided by the Welsh Labour Government. Trust funds exist, First Minister, as you know, to help young people with savings to support them into adult life—support that was abolished by the UK Tory Government. Since then, Tory Ministers have failed to link people with their accounts, meaning that millions could go unclaimed when all children in Wales born in 2002 will be eligible to access their savings this September. What representations has the Welsh Government made to the UK Government to ensure that young people are reunited with their savings?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Dawn Bowden for pointing to one of the great social policy experiments of this century. I deeply regret the fact that the child trust fund, launched by Labour in 2002 was abolished by the incoming coalition Government in 2010, because that scheme offered young people and particularly people from disadvantaged communities a chance to begin their adult life with an asset behind them, and in asset-based welfare, the theory is that assets change lives; that, if you have a sum of money that you can rely on, you make different sorts of decisions about your future. Now, we have this great natural experiment because we have these cohorts of young people born from 1 September 2002 until 2011 and the first generation of those children turn 18 in September of this year. There were 273,000 young people in Wales who had child trust fund accounts opened for them and some Members here will remember my colleague, Brian Gibbons, introducinga Welsh addition to those child trust funds, so that children in Wales, when they became primary school age, every child had £50 added to their account; every child from a disadvantaged family had £100 added to their account.
When the child trust fund was set up, Llywydd, the idea was not simply to put money into a child's account, but that that child would be able to track that account throughout their maturity—that, every year, they would have a statement telling them how much was being held for them. By the time they were 16, they were meant to be able to make decisions for themselves about where that fund would be invested. And, when the fund was abolished, unfortunately all of that was abolished as well.
That's why we are fearful, as Dawn Bowden has said, that there could be thousands of young people in Wales in September of this year who have had money invested on their behalf that could provide a platform for them as they go into adult life, who will know nothing about it. That's why my colleague Rebecca Evans wrote to Treasury Ministers on 22 January, urging them to take new action, so that those young people in Wales who have an opportunity to take advantage of their child trust fund will be identified and that we can be confident that, for those young people at least, this opportunity will be genuinely available.

Finally, question 6, Huw Irranca-Davies.

The Ford Bridgend Taskforce

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 6. Will the First Minister provide an update on the latest meeting of the Ford Bridgend Taskforce? OAQ54985

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the taskforcelast met on 20 January. It was attended by the Minister for the economy, Ken Skates, and by the Secretary of State for Wales, Simon Hart. The meeting reviewed progress to date and agreed next steps in delivering a regional approach to the Ford plant closure.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I notice that, in the press release that accompanied that update last week, it mentioned that, in the next phase, it'll move on to focusing on the regional approach. Much of the focus at the moment has been very much on the site itself, the legacy, the community fund that will be left, which, I have to say—I'm sure my colleague Carwyn and I will both agree—should be as large as any community fund that's been left anywhere else when Ford have left a community. But, on that regional approach, would he emphasise to the chair and the taskforce members the necessity of working with Bridgend County Borough Council on some of their regional plans as well, and those would include ones such as economic hubs in the Garw and the Ogmore valleys and development of empty or unused sites, such as the Ewenny Road site as well? I think there's a real opportunity here, First Minister, for the taskforce to work across the region with some quite exciting plans that are already in the pipeline, and that's the way we'll make the regeneration with this taskforce really bite deep.

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that, Llywydd, and agree with him entirely that the closure of a plant like Bridgend has a regional as well as a local impact? There will be many Assembly Members here, to the east and to the west of Bridgend, who have constituents who are working, have been working, in Ford, and the impact of the closure will not simply be felt in the immediate locality, but right across the region. That is why the taskforce agreed at its last meeting on a regional focus for the next phase of its work.
Certainly, it will want to work with Bridgend County Borough Council to make sure that some of their wider ambitions can be supported by the work of the taskforce. It's why, when Ineos, for example, was brought to Bridgend itself, the Welsh Government has had a real emphasis on supply chain opportunities, because the companies that Ineos will contract with will have a regional impact beyond Bridgend as well, and the taskforce, I know, is going, in its next phase of work, to have a particular focus on that wider impact—the things that we can do beyond Bridgend as a town—to make sure that the impact of the closure is attended to in all its different dimensions.

Thank you, First Minister.

Questions to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip

The next item is questions to the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, and the first question is from Mohammad Asghar.

Hate Crime

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 1. Will the Deputy Minister provide an update on measures to tackle hate crime in Wales? OAQ54993

Jane Hutt AC: We've significantly increased our investment in tackling hate crime in recent months to address the rise in hateful narratives. And I'll lead a debate in March providing an update on action to tackle hate crime with our partners in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you for the reply, Minister. Welsh police forces recorded nearly 4,000 hate crimes in 2018-19. Eleven per cent of these incidents were disability hate crimes—shocking. The learning disability charity United Response has called for measures to be taken across the country and by the authorities to make the process of reporting and convicting disability hate crimes more accessible and less daunting for victims. They went on to say they feel the process is currently a significant barrier to criminals being given the punishment they deserve, especially in the context of the dramatic rise in repeat offenders. Minister, will you take action to address the specific needs of disabled people with regard to reporting hate crime in Wales, please?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank you very much for that question, Oscar, because it is true that the rise in disability hate crime was a shocking statistic last year. We have put more funding into our national hate crime report and support centre over the next two years, and that's also on top of annual funding that we give. And we're also developing an anti-hate crime campaign in terms of communications, and we're going to focus particularly on hate crime affecting disabled people, and learning from, for example, the organisation People First—you will be aware of the People First organisations across Wales—so that learning disabled people can contribute to that communications campaign in terms of tackling disabled people's hate crime, which, unfortunately, has been on the rise.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, would you agree with me that hate crime against the Gypsy/Traveller community must be treated with equal seriousness as hate crime against any other community or minority in Wales? I recently met with local members of my Gypsy/Traveller community, and they feel very strongly that too often that isn't the case. They gave examples of social media postings, for example, that were discriminatory, prejudicial and clearly hate crime, but when they tried to get effective action, they found it very, very difficult. Their plea, really, was that hate crime against their community must be treated with equal seriousness as any other hate crime.

Jane Hutt AC: Again, I thank John Griffiths for that important question and, indeed, we must treat hate crime against Gypsy/Traveller/Roma communities with equal vigour, as we are against disability hate crime, race hate crime, LGBT hate crime, all the hate crimes that unfortunately are in our midst. And, of course, I'm pleased that we are investing not only in our Travelling Ahead fund in terms of ensuring that we do have Gypsy sites across Wales, but also working with local authorities and those third sector organisations that we are supporting the Gypsy/Traveller/Roma community. And can I also say that it's very important that we have an all-party group to tackle these issues? I meet regularly with Isaac Blake from the Gypsy/Traveller Romani Cultural and Arts Company, and we are funding them in terms of addressing these issues.

Public Services Boards

Jenny Rathbone AC: 2. What strategies does the Welsh Government have to maximise the benefits of public service boards as established by the Wellbeing of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? OAQ55016

Jane Hutt AC: Public services boards have a collective purpose and obligation to improve well-being in their areas through their local well-being plans. The Welsh Government provides a range of support to enable them to make their work as effective as possible.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. The Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee is currently scrutinising the Government's work on eliminating fuel poverty in Wales—important both from the social justice perspective as well as our need to eliminate carbon emissions as quickly as possible. It's one of those challenging issues that requires a joined-up approach by all stakeholders, from energy companies to all public services as well as citizens. An ideal subject, you would have thought, for public services boards, but we've yet to receive any evidence the public services boards are being tasked to join up the gaps between these different services. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that public services boards are grasping complex issues like fuel poverty to deliver on the ways of working and objectives, as in the well-being of future generations Act?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for that question, and it's very good to hear that the climate change committee is undertaking this inquiry into tackling fuel poverty. What is crucial is that public services boards must be held to account for the work that they're doing and, in fact, they have that scrutiny through a local authority scrutiny committee, which reviews both the governance of the public services board and its decisions. And, indeed, the Welsh Government has a representative on each of the public services boards to make sure that there is a connection between local and national context. In looking at policy issues, it's vital that PSBs do understand complex issues and address them.
But, I think that there are some encouraging accounts of what PSBs are doing in terms of making fuel poverty a priority for their area. I'd just mention Cwm Taf, which I understand is tackling fuel poverty by promoting the Warm Homes programme, community energy schemes and home insulation. The Vale of Glamorgan, my own constituency, I have to say, has a long-term goal of developing a co-ordinated approach to tackling fuel poverty, and they are engaging the expertise and contribution of registered social landlords.
In Cardiff, your public services board have specific action to help people out of poverty, with fuel poverty as an outcome indicator, which they are going to use to measure the impact of public services boards. So, that's a real opportunity to see if Cardiff can prove the important contribution impact of the public services boards in terms of tackling fuel poverty.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Last autumn, the auditor general found that the way that public services boards are currently operating is hampering their ability to improve the well-being of their communities. His report identified weaknesses such as the inadequacy of accountability and oversight arrangements, lack of public reporting and the duplication of PSB activity with other partnerships. Now, there is a significant difference between here and England. Here, Welsh Government policy for PSBs promotes a public sector-led response to addressing many challenges, and the private sector is not identified as a core PSB member. What consideration will you give to encouraging PSBs to consider the benefits of involving representatives of the private sector that already show significant influences in other areas?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, it is important that we assess the impact of public services boards—crucial, as part of the tools of the well-being of future generations legislation, and obviously of great interest to the commissioner. Of course, we are seeking to support PSBs, to make them have a greater impact in terms of delivery. That includes engagement partners, and not just community, which is crucial, but also, clearly, private sector partners where appropriate. For example, some public services boards are looking at those priorities such as the early years policy area, which I know you'd welcome, and also the foundational economy. But, I think that it is important that public services boards have to publish annual reports making their work transparent, improving well-being in their areas, so it is a point for scrutiny, and to take into account their work.

Antisemitism

Suzy Davies AC: 3. What is the Welsh Government doing to tackle anti-semitism? OAQ55000

Jane Hutt AC: The Welsh Government has adopted the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism in full and without qualification. We are determined to root out intolerance in our communities, and I will provide a full statement this afternoon on work that we are doing to combat antisemitism and to commemorate the Holocaust.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you for that, and I'm looking forward to your statement, on the back of which I hope to ask you a different question. But, for now, I would like to ask you about education and, in the light of the new curriculum, whether you would consider the work of the March of the Living movement. This is an annual educational programme that brings students from around the world to Poland, where they explore the remnants of the Holocaust and march silently from Auschwitz to Birkenau.
I have to say that visiting the camps really does change people. Seeing is believing, and certainly feeling. If education is at the heart of stamping out hatred, would you please work with the education Minister to ensure absolutely that the Holocaust does not fall out of the curriculum, and that as many young people as possible have the opportunity to see these camps for themselves?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank Suzy Davies very much for that question, and I realise that this follows your visit, and that you were part of a delegation, I understand, to Auschwitz. I'm sure that we will hear more about that later on this afternoon, when I make my statement. I know that the education Minister will be willing to look at the March of the Living movement, in particular, as you've raised it today, but you will know that we do also provide an annual grant of £119,000 to the Holocaust Educational Trust to deliver the Lessons from Auschwitz Project. And also, and we'll speak more of this this afternoon, I'm sure, we've provided £40,500 of funding, EU transition funding, in fact, to the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust to undertake much work involving schools in Wales as part of this year's commemorations.
Actually, yesterday, young people took part in the national service in City Hall, which was very powerful, I know, and also last night at an event at the Friends Meeting House, where two young people read out a Holocaust memorial prayer in Welsh and in English. And I think the fact that we're supporting the Holocaust Educational Trust does mean that, in fact, last year, a visit took place. Now that I've got the opportunity to say: 186 participants took part in that visit to Auschwitz, including 154 pupils from 66 schools, sixth forms and colleges, 19 teachers, 13 others, including facilitators and press representatives. And that programme will run again in Wales from January—crucial to enable young people to engage. But, clearly, we will also look at the movements, the March of the Living movement as well.

Joyce Watson AC: Yesterday marked the seventy-fifth anniversary since the liberation of Auschwitz death camp. It's estimated that over a million people who were predominantly Jewish died a horrific death there. And that included men, women and children of all ages. And it is certainly, we will all agree, one of the darkest periods in our human history. Minister, do you agree with me that we must always remember the atrocities that happened in Auschwitz, so that they do serve as a stark reminder of what did and what can happen when people incite hatred towards others?

Jane Hutt AC: I do thank Joyce Watson for that question. Together, we must ensure the Holocaust remains in our collective memory as a warning of how hateful and divisive narratives can cause that unthinkable damage. And that's why we have funded the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust and the Holocaust Educational Trust to undertake activities in Wales. But I think that many Members here from across the Chamber will have heard survivors—in fact, we heard a survivor earlier on this year at an event organised with Darren Millar and Jenny Rathbone and others. But yesterday some of us also heard the survivor Dr Martin Stern. We know that the survivors' stories—it is hard to believe that they've survived, but they're so committed, often in retirement, and we have to listen to those survivors about what they've gone through. But, I think, the Holocaust Memorial Day, is, as they say, learning lessons from the past to create a safer, better future, and we will be speaking more on this later this afternoon.

Protecting Human Rights

Siân Gwenllian AC: 4. How will the Welsh Government ensure that current human rights are protected when the UK leaves the European Union? OAQ55008

Jane Hutt AC: I have commissioned research on options to strengthen and advance equality and human rights in Wales. It will look at United Nations conventions, existing Welsh legislation and whether there may be a need for a human rights Bill for Wales.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Excellent. I'm very pleased to hear that, and that you commissioned that work and that that will include some legislative work, because what we do know is that there is a very real potential for us to lose many of the rights—workers' rights, women's rights, the rights of disabled people and so on—as we leave the European Union. And I believe that, in the summer, the Counsel General, Jeremy Miles, raised this issue of the need for legislation, and I think the late Steffan Lewis and myself mentioned this a while ago too, and the name that we proposed was a people's rights Act. So, I'm very pleased to hear that there is some movement towards this. Can you give us some sort of timetable on it, please?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Siân. I think the Jeremy Miles lecture at the Eisteddfod, and Steffan Lewis, of course—and I was glad to be sharing a committee space with him. When we had the chance, I would always raise human rights, and I know Members do on David's committee. But it's very important that we've actually awarded a contract for the research, in terms of timetable. It's a consortia led by Swansea University, who are going to research these wider options, in terms of the—. The commission is about strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales. We also have a steering group, which is meeting tomorrow for the first time, and we expect to report by the end of this year. But it will be looking at the impact of the withdrawal of the—the loss of the charter of fundamental rights of the European Union. And we know that human rights are hard-wired into our DNA, not just legally, through the provisions in the Government of Wales Act 2006, but also culturally and through our proud history in Wales of driving for fairness and inclusivity.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Darren Millar AC: I know of your personal commitment to human rights, Minister, and I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government is at least talking about trying to take something forward, in order to emphasise and underscore the commitment through legislation here in Wales. As you will know, I introduced an older people's Bill, which, effectively, was voted down by the Government, because of your intention to bring forward legislation. I am very concerned, though, that the timetable simply will not allow for a piece of legislation to get through this Parliament by the time that we rise and go into our dissolution period, in advance of the next National Assembly elections. And I'd be very grateful if you could give an indication as to the position of the Government, and whether you feel that legislation will be achieved within the tight timetable that we have. And if it isn't going to be achieved, what other action are you going to take, in order to protect these rights?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that question, Darren Millar. And it is important that I report back, and I indeed will do, on progress with this important work. The steering group meets tomorrow—it's called the strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales steering group—and we're also actually making progress with commencing the socioeconomic duty in Part 1 of the Equality Act 2010. You're aware that we've just completed a consultation. We're also reviewing the Welsh-specific duties, under the public sector equality duty. So, these are important tools to strengthen and to meet those needs, in terms of human rights. But we're looking at those wider options, in terms of the possible incorporation of UN conventions into Welsh law. And, of course, that's something that Helen Mary Jones also brought up, in terms of the prospects for a possible legislative opportunity. We will, of course—. We are undertaking—we've commissioned this research in order to ensure that we get this right, and I know that people, across the Chamber, will accept that that's the right way forward. But it, of course, will enable us to consider—and I'm sure all parties will want to then consider—whether there is a need for fresh legislation, such as a human rights Bill for Wales.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Item 2 on the agenda is the business statement and announcement. And I call on the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Trefnydd, can I request a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services on mental health services in north Wales, please? It's been over four and a half years since the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board was placed into special measures, for, amongst other things, significant challenges in its governance, and mental health services. We are repeatedly told in this Chamber that things are improving, that steady progress is being made, and yet, just last week, a report came to light that suggests a quite different picture of services in north Wales, particularly in terms of psychological therapies. There was a report that identified, frankly, serious failings, including unacceptably long waiting lists, a lack of strategic and integrated workforce development, an under-resourced service, which isn't fit for purpose, a sense of despondency amongst staff. Now, frankly, I was very surprised that this report seems to have been published earlier last year—around August/September time—and yet there appears to be no discussion about this report, no report back to Assembly Members about this report, and the board itself doesn't appear to have discussed it in any of its board papers. So, I do think that, given the serious findings in that report, we need an urgent update from the Minister for Health and Social Services on the current situation.
Can I also call for a statement on the regulation of independent schools? The education Minister will be aware of the significant interest that there has been publicly as a result of the media reports into some safeguarding issues at Ruthin School in my constituency. And I do think that we need to look at the regulations around independent schools in order to strengthen the safeguarding arrangements, but, more than that, also to actually have a look at the Education Workforce Council's role, and whether it may be appropriate to have a discrete registration category, particularly for senior leaders in our independent schools, in order to ensure that they are appropriate? Obviously, there's a lot of outrage at some of the reports, which have been read, in terms of what's been going on in that school in north Wales, and certainly in my constituency, and I think it would be useful to have a written or oral statement on that as soon as possible.
And just finally, in terms of tourism zones, you'll be aware that the UK Government announced in June of last year that there will be a number of tourism zones across the country, which will be designated—[Interruption.]—and, no, it's not just England, actually, this is a UK-wide project. I was very disappointed that there's been no updates to this Chamber on any prospects, in terms of Wales actually being designated a zone, or even north Wales designated as a zone. It's quite clear from the UK Government that this is on offer for the whole of the United Kingdom, not just England, as has been asserted by the Minister responsible for tourism on your benches. I would therefore be very grateful if we could have an urgent statement on this matter in order that we can take advantage of this opportunity to get investment into Wales to maximise our tourism industry.

Rebecca Evans AC: So, on the first issue, which was a request for an update regarding Betsi Cadwaldr University Health Board, I can confirm that such an update will be forthcoming on 25 February. That's on the business statement, which has been published today.
On the second issue, regarding Ruthin School, Welsh Government is aware of those serious findings of the Care Inspectorate Wales report, and officials, along with Estyn inspectors, are considering an action plan from the school, which has been submitted following a request by the Welsh Government for the action plan. But the Minister has indicated she'd be happy to provide a further update, and I know that you've also tabled a series of written questions, which will also receive an answer.
And on the third issue, the Minister with responsibility for tourism is here to hear your request for further information on that. And it is important that, where possible, Welsh Government makes the most of the opportunities to work with the UK Government. But it is incumbent on the UK Government to recognise that tourism is devolved to the National Assembly for Wales and it's incumbent on them to have discussions with our Minister to explore how we could work jointly for the benefit of Wales.

Leanne Wood AC: Adref is a charity that has been supporting vulnerable people and combating homelessness in my area for three decades. The charity is threatened now with closure, because Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council have awarded the contract to provide local hostel services to another organisation, an organisation with little or no experience of the situation in Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr. This will mean some redundancies. It will mean a loss of expert local knowledge about the homeless situation in our area and it will mean the loss of a small army of volunteers.Adref's great community work, like the Christmas hamper appeal that my office has supported for many years, is unlikely to be duplicated, and you can't put a price on community work like that.
So, Trefnydd, can we have a statement from the Government about local procurement principles for third sector contracts? Will you join me in urging RCT council and Merthyr council to think again on this matter and to recognise the great work that this charity has carried out since it was set up by probation officers who identified a local need back in 1987?
Health chiefs from Cwm Taf are recommending the withdrawal of consultant-led accident and emergency services in one form or another from the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. This has grave implications for the place that I represent, the Rhondda, and people are justifiably angry at the prospect of having to travel further in a potentially life-threatening emergency.
No-one has yet been able to answer the concerns about the ambulance response times, or the fact that a significant number of people living in the Rhondda are without a car. And that, in my view, is outrageous. People have little faith that their legitimate concerns will be taken into account following the sham consultation that was run back in 2014, where 60,000 people said that they didn't want the changes to go ahead, and those voices were ignored.
In many ways, the problems we face now are largely due to a lack of workforce planning from a succession of Labour health Ministers. Plaid Cymru put forward a plan six years ago to address the shockingly low ratio of doctors to people that we have in this country, and our plans were scoffed at by the very people who had the power or the responsibility to do something about it.
I will be gauging the mood of Rhondda people at a Plaid Cymru organised open meeting next Monday at Porth Harlequins rugby club. Everyone is welcome to attend. Perhaps Ministers would like to come and hear the strength of feeling from Rhondda people on this matter. You would be more than welcome to attend if you wanted to take up that offer.
But I'd like to ask: do you regret the lack of action to address the consultant shortage in Wales by your Cabinet colleagues? Will the Government make a statement on its plans to address the withering of district general hospitals, and emergency services in particular, which is a problem not just in the Rhondda, but across the whole of our country?

Rebecca Evans AC: On the first issue, I don't think it's appropriate for the Welsh Government to be putting pressure on local authorities in terms of the decisions they make in terms of the awarding of contracts. However, I would encourage the Member to make her concerns known to both Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr councils with regard to the local procurement. I will be happy, of course, to provide an update on Welsh Government's approach to supporting local procurement and the work that we're doing, particularly through the foundational economy approach, which my colleague the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport is leading on.
On the second issue, of course Welsh Government is aware that Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board has been reviewing the implementation of the remaining elements of the south Wales programme involving the future of emergency medicine, and proposed options will be discussed at its public board meeting on 30 January. Clearly, it would be improper and inappropriate for me to comment on or pre-empt those discussions, but we would expect the board to be working with stakeholders to consider options and then to agree a sustainable model of care for the future. I know that the Member will be making her representations as part of that due process.

David Rees AC: Minister, last week, Swansea Bay University Health Board announced that it was actually going to freeze recruitment to posts that are vacant as a consequence of the financial position it finds itself in, as a way in which to reduce the financial position and deficit. Now, this will impact upon my constituents, as it will impact upon your constituents, and many others who represent constituencies in the Swansea and Neath Port Talbot areas.
Can I have a statement from the Welsh Government highlighting whether it believes this is a way forward in reducing financial pressures on health boards? Because this actually could put at risk patient care, because every one of those posts, whether it be a member of the administrative team, the clerking team, a member of the physiotherapy, radiotherapy, radiographic—any member of a team. They didn't mention nurses and doctors, by the way; they said those were safe. But other members are crucial to the care of patients.
Could we therefore have a statement from the Minister on that position, and perhaps the way Welsh Government wants to work with health boards to ensure they do not find themselves in a situation where they're freezing posts, stopping people from being recruited, and therefore having an impact upon care?

Rebecca Evans AC: The matters you describe in terms of staffing are, in the first instance, operational matters for the health board, but they have been very clear on ensuring that those actions do not affect patient care or the quality of service, and that is Welsh Government's clear interest in this.
Health organisations in Wales, like those across the UK, have to make annual savings every year to improve efficiency and to manage within those allocated resources. They're reported monthly as part of annual accounts, and indeed have been scrutinised over recent years by Assembly committees, including those committees that have made criticisms, actually, when those budgets have overspent or those savings haven't been made.
It is worth recognising, of course, that Welsh Government has invested over £0.5 billion extra in the NHS this year, and we've seen the underlying NHS deficit reduced by 35 per cent between 2016-17 and 2018-19, and we do expect there to be further improvements this year, demonstrating better financial management. But none of that can come at the expense of patient care or the quality of service.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, may I ask for a statement from the Minister for Economy and Transport on the continuing delay to completing works to dual the A465 Heads of the Valleys road? This work was originally due to finish by the end of last year. We now hear that the date for completion for this project is being reviewed again. Furthermore, there is a dispute between the contractor and the Welsh Government over the costs of the scheme, which is already £54 million over budget.
Minister, could we have a statement on how this situation has come about, who is responsible for the design information of the road, what the cost to the taxpayer will be, and when can the long-suffering users of this road expect to see it completed? Really, it's a very, very tough job for the people living in Brynmawr and Abergavenny to travel on that road, because it's not only taking time, it's a real frustration for many urgent users. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I would say, with respect, that the First Minister did answer a great deal of that concern during First Minister's questions in response to the Conservative Party leader's questions, but I do know that it is the intention of the Minister for Economy and Transport to provide a further update to Assembly Members as soon he's able to do so and as soon as there is more news in terms of that dispute, which we hope will be resolved.

Bethan Sayed AC: I would like an oral statement from the Minister for health as regards what's happening now with the eating disorders framework given that review has taken place. We did have a meeting of the cross-party group last week, and there is concern as to how much money will be provided to fund the changes, what specific health boards are going to be able to do, and will they have capacity within the system to allow them to provide more staff into eating disorders work. I know that there are people who are very interested in this area and want to work with health boards to make this happen.
So, I would like an oral statement as I have asked so many times and I've only received a statement in an e-mail. I think this is an issue of such great importance to so many people in Wales that we would appreciate having an oral statement from the health Minister.

Bethan Sayed AC: The second issue I'd like to raise is probably more so in my capacity as Chair of the culture committee. Yesterday, you may have seen the Music Venues Trust has said that there's going to be a 50 per cent business relief for small to medium-sized businesses that are music venues across England and Wales. In their statement, they've said that 230 grass-roots venues across England and Wales will get that relief. I've been informed via my committee team, with Welsh Government, that that isn't necessarily going to come to Wales. It will mean that there may be a consequential via Barnett, but we are not sure if that's going to happen.
People are very confused, people want to welcome it, people want it to happen here in Wales, they want to see that business rate relief, but we don't know if that is the case. So, I would ask for a statement, in whichever form in this regard, to come from the Welsh Government to see what the Treasury is intending to do. Are we going to get that business rate relief, and when? And can you make a statement to the public, because there's a lot of confusion out there about the current situation?

Rebecca Evans AC: So, on the first issue of the eating disorders framework, I will of course speak to the health Minister and make him aware of your request for that statement, which I know he will obviously give his consideration to.FootnoteLink
On the second issue, I can say that we don't yet know what, if any, Barnett consequentials might be coming to Wales as a result of the UK Government's decision regarding business rates. But we already have in Wales the high street rate relief scheme, which has been in operation since 2017, and that's unique to Wales. It does provide support, which is available to pubs and restaurants, and so on, so it's wider than what we might think of as particularly high-street retailers themselves. I did provide a written statement just recently indicating that we were extending that support into 2020-21, but I'd be more than happy to share that again with Members.

Information further to Plenary

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, could we have a statement, please, from the Deputy Minister for social services in relation to a Government report compiled by the housing learning and improvement network around care homes and the provision of care homes? This report highlights that by 2035 there will be a nearly 30,000 shortfall in spaces across Wales for accommodation of this type of care.
Many local authorities at the moment are looking to reconfigure their care home provision; Rhondda Cynon Taf, for example, are out at the moment, and the cabinet will meet next month. I think it's important to understand, when Welsh Government commission this type of work, how that is fed into its partner organisations, local government in this instance, and how that information is shared when they're building in capacity. This is quite a live issue, to say the least, in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area, with many people wanting the retention of the existing care homes in that particular area. But it would seem to me that this particular report has been compiled on behalf of Welsh Government, but not shared with its partner agencies.
So, could we have a statement from the Deputy Minister to understand (a) the commissioning process (b) what she thinks of the report itself and its recommendations and (c) how she will be working with organisations that support the Welsh Government in delivery of social care across Wales to make sure that its recommendations are delivered on the ground?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'd be more than happy to pursue your request with the Deputy Minister for social services. On a slightly different angle, we do have an update on the inter-ministerial group on paying for social care on the agenda for next week, which I know is part of the wider conundrum that we face in terms of ensuring that we have a sustainable care home service here in Wales for the future. But on that specific issue of the report, I will seek to pursue that with the Deputy Minister on your behalf.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Siân Gwenllian AC: Given the budgetary processes going on in local authorities across Wales at the moment and the further threat to transport for post-16 learners in those budgets, can we have an update on the review of learner travel in the post-16 sector, the review announced on 13 November? And can you also ask the Minister or the Deputy Minister with responsibility for this area to outline the rationale for deferring the process of reviewing the guidelines on learner travel until the findings of the review of learner travel in the post-16 sector will be clear? Because these issues do need to be addressed urgently. For example, there are issues arising from all of this related to transport to Welsh-medium education, and the situation causes uncertainty and confusion. I would like to understand some of the rationale behind this delay and what the current situation is.

Rebecca Evans AC: I don't have a date yet in terms of an update on the review of the learner travel Measure. Since it was only announced in November, I suspect that it might be a little while before that review comes to a conclusion. But I would encourage you to write to the Minister for Economy and Transport with your specific questions regarding why the decision on reviewing the guidelines was deferred, because I think that would probably be the most appropriate and quickest way to get an answer on that specific question.

Mark Isherwood AC: I was going to call for a statement updating the situation in Betsi Cadwaladr; I note that Darren Millar my colleague has already done so. You said the health Minister will be making a statement on 25 February. Could I ask you to invite him to ensure that that does address the report that Darren Millar referred to on the psychological therapies review in north Wales by the TogetherBetter collaborative consultancy, an independent report? Because, in addition to the findings that Darren highlighted, it talks about a lack of shared vision about what you're seeking to achieve, a lack of strategic clarity and oversightat health board and divisional levels, and an enormous data deficit. And, worryingly, as the North Wales Community Health Council states, after nearly five years in special measures, much of it related to mental health issues, these findings are deeply disappointing. The key recommendations should have been tackled in 2015-16 when the health board was first taken into special measures. It is unsatisfactory to hear that these fundamental issues still remain unresolved almost five years on.
Could you also ask the health Minister to incorporate specific reference to vascular services in north Wales relating to diseases of the blood vessels, the arteries and veins and the body's circulatory system, where our health council in north Wales has held four out of what will be 11 safe-space events across the region, and they're hearing clearly that public confidence in the north Wales vascular service has been severely compromised? They say that many people have said that they've written to the health board requesting information under freedom of information, but have not received anything. The view is that if figures were positive, the health board would be keen to release them, and that the community health council themselves have written requesting performance data and this has also been denied to the community health council on the grounds that it will eventually be provided as part of the vascular services review, which, they point out, is in clear breach of the legislation and regulation relating to community health councils' rights to information. The North Wales Community Health Council executive has considered this matter and strongly recommends that a degree of externality should be introduced now to the vascular review reflecting this.
These are two of the key issues that are coming up across the region, one of which was the final tipping point in relation to the special measures. It is desperately unacceptable that, five years later, we should be hearing reports like this, and I hope you will therefore agree to ask your colleague to address these specifically alongside the wider matters that he may choose to present to us on 25 February.

Rebecca Evans AC: I can reassure colleagues that I always draw Ministers' attention to any contributions that Members make in relation to their portfolios during the business statement, and I'll certainly do that with regard to your particular concerns about mental ill health services and vascular services in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board area. And obviously, the Minister will be making an oral statement, so there'll be opportunity for deeper questioning on those issues during that statement.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'd like to ask the Trefnydd for two statements today. First, with regard to the outstanding issues with regard to the census. I know that Welsh Government shares the concerns on these benches that Welsh citizens should be able to identify as black and ethnic minority Welsh without having to go through the inconvenience of having to write handwriting in a separate part of the form.
I'd like to ask for an updated statement from the Government as to their current position with regard to this and any conversations they've had with the Office for National Statistics. Colleagues from Gwynedd Council met the ONS yesterday and actually received quite a favourable response, and the ONS was asking for evidence. Now, I'm sure that Welsh Ministers will be aware that Gwynedd and the other north Wales authorities have found in their own monitoring systems ways in which black and ethnic minority citizens can register themselves as Welsh in the way that we would seek the census to do. So, I'd be very grateful if we can have a further statement from the Government about—a written statement, perhaps—the latest position in this regard, because time is running out and the ONS will shortly be doing further piloting with the forms they propose to use, and I fear that once those forms have been used in the pilots, it will be more difficult to change them.
Welsh Ministers will also be aware that Carmarthenshire County Council has reached a position where they have had to withdraw their application for planning for the current proposed site for the new Ysgol Dewi Sant. This is a matter of great regret to me and more importantly to my constituents and to the children who are being taught in conditions that, were they factory workers, the factory would be closed down because it simply isn't safe. Now, obviously, this was a decision that the local authority took; this is certainly not a matter for the Minister for Education, and I know that she has expressed a willingness in future to look at a further application for funding if it comes forward. But I would like to ask for a statement from the Minister with responsibility for planning, because the reason why this withdrawal has been necessary is that the county has spent over £0.5 million trying to respond to the requirements of the call-in process, and they have reached the point where they simply feel they have to back away from that site, even though, out of the nine sites looked at in the previous public consultation, this was the favoured site. So, I would like to ask the Minister with responsibility for planning to review the call-in process, particularly with regard to public buildings, to ensure that it is better insulated in future from party political interference, which has been at the root of this issue for Ysgol Dewi Sant.

Rebecca Evans AC: On the first issue, which was seeking an update on the discussions that Welsh Government has had with the ONS regarding the census and people's ability to identify as being of an ethnic minority whilst also being Welsh at the same time, I was able to update your colleague Bethan Sayed last week in the business statement. I don't have a further update beyond that at this point. But I did have a very good meeting with the deputy chief statistician and, like with the meeting that you described in Gwynedd, we found the ONS to be particularly open to having these discussions, and keen, as we are, to find a suitable way forward. And as soon as I have something further I will, obviously, update colleagues on that.
With regard to your concern about the call-in process, could I ask you to write to the Minister for planning, Julie James, outlining the particular case study that you've described this afternoon? And then she'll obviously have the opportunity to respond.

Delyth Jewell AC: I would like to ask for a statement from the health Minister about general practitioner recruitment in Aneurin Bevan health board. I've been told that the health board has failed to plan in advance for the retirement of a GP that serves the Lansbury Park and Penyrheol surgeries in my region. Now, both of those practices are crucial bedrocks of their local communities, as you can imagine, and they provide a range of essential services for thousands of nearby homes and provide business for local chemists as well, and neither has nearby alternatives, because all the other surgeries are full up. I'm concerned that the plan to hire a locum, rather than a long-term appointment to cover both surgeries, would endanger their long-term sustainability, and I'm also concerned for the general picture within the health board, given that a recent British Medical Association GP heat map indicated that up to 32 practices may be at risk within the health board area.
Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for this statement from the Minister to explain how the Welsh Government intends to turn around this failure to plan the workforce in advance, how it intends to meet growing demand, and what reassurance the Minister can offer patients in my region that these surgeries that they depend on will be put on a sustainable footing as soon as possible.

Rebecca Evans AC: On the wider issue of workforce planning, again I will speak to my colleague the health Minister to make him aware of your request for the statement, but, with regard to your particular concern about the GP surgery that services Lansbury Park and the surrounding area, if you could, again, put that in a letter to the health Minister, I know that he will be able to take that up directly with the health board on your behalf.

Neil McEvoy AC: I'd like a Government statement—or maybe some advice, really. I've stated several times that a child with learning difficulties alleged abuse in care—[Interruption.] I've no idea why there's a sarcastic noise from my right, from a Labour Assembly Member. I'll say it again: a child with learning difficulties alleged abuse in care. My information is as follows: he was not taken to a place of safety; he was not given an advocate; he was not spoken to by a child protection officer, a child protection specialist; he was told off. The written record I've seen says that he was told off. The written record that I've also seen states that the child did not change his mind on what had happened.
On Friday, I wrote to the children's commissioner, I wrote to the chief constable of South Wales Police, I wrote to Cardiff county council and I wrote to the public services ombudsman, because, when I named the company on social media, a now adult who used to be a child in care with the same company made allegations of assault against him—he said that he had witnessed two other assaults, one allegedly perpetrated by the convicted paedophile Liam Brown. Now, the point is that these children were supposedly all in the care of Priority Child Care Ltd. Now, I've written to the South Wales Police, I've written to the children's commissioner, I've written to the council, I've written to the ombudsman, I've raised it here several times to the point of a gasp, almost, from my right there, of disapproval.
So, I want a Government statement because I'd really like to know what am I supposed to do? What is this child's family supposed to do? Who is listening? All I've had off South Wales Police—actually, nothing; I've written to them twice. The children's commissioner, I had an acknowledgement. The ombudsman, I've just had an acknowledgement that seems to have popped up on my screen now. This is a really, really serious matter. This is supposedly our national Parliament. I'm raising it here. What on earth is going on?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, the issue that Neil McEvoy describes is obviously, clearly, a very serious one, and the individual who disclosed on social media that they had been the victim of abuse certainly should make those concerns known to the police in the first instance, and I see that Neil McEvoy has made those concerns known to the police, which is obviously the appropriate first step.
Neil McEvoy raised some similar questions about child safeguarding in a recent business statement, and I did indicate that the Minister with responsibility for social services would be writing, setting out the approach to safeguarding, and I'll be sure that your comments this afternoon are taken into consideration as that response is prepared.

And finally, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, very much Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like a Government statement as to what conditions the Welsh Government places on funding provided by it for businesses in order to safeguard staff and employment in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm pleased that Welsh Government has been able to support Stena Line with a number of investments in Holyhead, but I want to appeal to Government to ensure that in providing support, it's able also to influence important local employers like Stena too. For example, I wonder if Government was aware of Stena's decision to re-flag its brand new Holyhead-to-Dublin ferry, Estrid. It's great to see investment in that beautiful new ship, but I am worried by the fact that in Algeciras, during a delivery from China recently, she was changed from Welsh to Cypriot registration. Estrid Cardiff was re-flagged and literally re-badged as Estrid Limassol. Now, there's a suggestion that it's driven by a desire to remain EU registered.
Now, I have met members of the ship's crew, who, as a result, now no longer pay UK national insurance contributions directly, and they're worried about the implications of that. But they also have longer term worries that re-flagging under a flag of convenience could be a slippery slope towards undermining workers' rights and even undermining Stena's previous policy, and current policy, which, of course, is vital in my constituency, of crewing locally rather than internationally.
So, as well as providing a statement, hopefully, can I ask Government, as I am doing, to write to Stena to seek assurances that workers' rights and jobs will be protected, and in doing so, that Welsh Government uses its influence as a part-funder of various Stena projects?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I had a recent meeting with the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workersto discuss exactly this issue, although it wasn't particularly in the context of Stena Line; it was more in the context of what we can do to support Welsh seafarers who work in all kinds of parts of the seafaring industry. And the concerns that were raised there were that when companies do take advantage of various opportunities that are there for them legally, then it does mean that some Welsh workers can be out-priced and that workers from elsewhere in the world can actually find themselves not paid as well as they should be and find themselves with poor employment rights as well. So, some of the concerns that you have described I very much recognise, and I'd be happy to ask the Minister for transport to provide an update on Welsh Government's approach to that, and some reflections on the opportunities that might be to change the law, although it would, I think, have to be done at a UK basis.

Thank you very much, Trefnydd.

Motions to Elect Members to Committees

The next item on the agenda are motions to elect Members to the committees, and in accordance with Standing Orders 12.24 and 12.40, I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and for voting. So, if there are no objections, can I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions formally—Trefnydd?

Motion NDM7248 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee in place of Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7249 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Dai Lloyd (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Committee on Assembly Electoral Reform in place of Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7250 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Public Accounts Committee in place of Adam Price (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7251 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Standards of Conduct Committee in place of Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7252 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Sian Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Finance Committee in place of Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7253 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee in place of Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7254 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Delyth Jewell as a member of the Equality,Local Government and Communities Committee in place of Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7255 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee in place of Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7256 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee in place of Delyth Jewell (Plaid Cymru).

Motion NDM7257 Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Sian Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Business Committee in place of Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru).

Motions moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Formally.

Formally. Thank you. I have no speakers, so the proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motions are agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motions agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

3. Statement by the Minister for Education: Curriculum for Wales Framework

Item 3 on the agenda is a statement by the Minister for Education on the curriculum for Wales framework. I call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today, I am publishing the refined curriculum for Wales guidance. This sets out: guidelines for every school to develop their curriculum; expectations around assessment arrangements to support learner progression; and the proposed legislative requirements to secure a consistency of approach for learners across the country.
Improving education is our national mission. Nothing is so essential as universal access to the experiences, knowledge and skills that our young people need for employment, for lifelong learning and active citizenship. Our new guidance is a clear statement of what is important in delivering a broad and balanced curriculum and education. The four purposes are the shared vision and aspiration for every child and young person. And, in fulfilling these, we set high expectations for all, promote individual and national well-being, tackle ignorance and misinformation, and encourage critical and civic engagement.
Our guidance is the product of a prolonged process of co-construction, involving practitioners from schools across Wales. I would like to take this opportunity to thank those practitioners for their commitment over the last three years in jointly drafting this guidance. I would also like to thank the individuals and organisations who engaged during the feedback phase last year, after the draft guidance was released. The quality and detail of these contributions has helped to make significant improvements. In the autumn, I published the analysis of this feedback; today, I am also publishing a response to that feedback, alongside the guidance.
Over the autumn, practitioners and officials have worked to refine the guidance in response to that feedback, and in particular to: simplify and reduce the volume of guidance; clarify which parts of the new curriculum framework will be mandatory to ensure equity across schools; and provide greater clarity and detail where practitioners require more support, giving them guidance on designing their own curriculum. This feedback, together with the process of co-construction, has been critical: guidance made by practitioners, for practitioners, through an ongoing dialogue with the whole of our education system.
Seeing all practitioners as curriculum designers represents a fundamental shift for education in Wales. The new guidance does not give a prescriptive programme that can simply be delivered. Instead, it is about empowering practitioners to decide what will help their learners to become ambitious and capable, ethical and informed, enterprising and creative, and healthy and confident.
The new guidance focuses on a more integrated approach to learning. The six areas of learning and experience bring together familiar disciplines and encourage strong and meaningful links across them. While disciplines remain important, this new approach supports learners to build connections across their learning, helping them understand not only what they learn, but why they learn it.
Our new guidance also places learner progression at its heart, with assessment playing a fundamental part in supporting this. The guidance has been fully informed by international evidence of progression. This will enable every learner to make progress throughout their education, in every area and discipline, rather than simply doing more and more of the acquiring of facts. Today's publication also includes specific guidance on developing assessment arrangements to support learner progression and enable every learner to make progress by ensuring that they are both supported and challenged.
Beyond the emphasis on co-construction, these changes are distinct from many of the similar types of reforms that we see elsewhere in three key respects. The learning outcomes in our guidance are based on robust evidence and methodology to sustaining learning over three-year periods. Outcomes elsewhere are often very narrow or vague, providing insufficient direction to practitioners. Our guidance is focused on schools designing their own curriculum. Reforms elsewhere often leave this entirely implicit. The 'Designing your Curriculum' section will help practitioners to develop a high-quality curriculum.
And we are working with our partners to ensure that schools are fully supported to realise the curriculum in their school within the framework that we have set out. International evidence makes clear that this next stage—implementation of our reforms—is the biggest challenge.After Easter, I will publish our curriculum implementation plan based on where schools should focus their efforts at different points up to 2022, and how we and the middle tier will support them in that process.
The feedback phase made clear that additional, specific guidance will be required to support practitioners in specific areas. To this end, Deputy Presiding Officer, in the next 18 months I will also publish a framework for religion, values and ethics to inform the development of the agreed syllabuses in each local authority; guidance for relationships and sexuality education; guidance on careers and work-related experiences; enabling steps to support learners at the very beginning of the learning continuum; a curriculum for funded non-maintained nursery settings to adopt; and guidance on developing a curriculum for pupil referral units and for those responsible for the provision of education other than at school.
It is now essential that Government, regional consortia, Estyn and local authorities work together to support every school, setting and practitioner to understand the new curriculum and to deliver it. In addition to my commitments to professional learning, officials are working with regional consortia and Estyn to establish national networks of practitioners and experts to share expertise and learning, and identify priorities for supporting the profession in readiness. Officials are working with practitioners to identify priorities for the development of resources, to ensure a range of supporting material is available by 2022 to help practitioners develop their own curriculum. Officials are also working closely with Qualifications Wales as it considers how qualifications may need to change to align with and support the new curriculum. This presents a fresh opportunity to consider the nature and role of qualifications for 14 to 16-year-olds.
Let me be clear: the publishing of this curriculum guidance is only the next step of co-construction. Government will continue to work closely with the profession to make this a success. But it is now for every practitioner to engage fully what has been published. Schools should take space and time to understand the model of the curriculum and start to discuss how their vision and values will eventually inform their own curriculum. They should not rush into trying to plan or implement it right now.
This new curriculum represents the very best of the education profession’s efforts. The next step in our reform journey is to prepare the profession to make it real in every classroom and for every learner in our nation.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much, Minister, for a very comprehensive statement on the journey so far. Can I offer my thanks to everybody else involved in what looks like, certainly, an enormous amount of hard work? I've explained before that the Welsh Conservatives have long argued that we should let teachers teach, and some of the changes already have our in-principle support. That goes hand in hand with our heads-up, if you like, on looking for greater information on what scrutiny will look like in future accountability and measurability—aspects that I'm sure we'll come back to in some more detail on another day.
Personally, I hope that we move away from this atmosphere of having to sit 13 or 14 GCSEs, or at least year 11 exams, in order to prove your excellence. There comes a point where you can be asked to do too much, when we look at it in these terms. If we are to avoid teaching to the exam, and I hope we are all on that page, we still will need to find a way for pupils to demonstrate their attainment across this broader curriculum, and again, I suspect that's something we'll come back to.
My first question is about the point that you made, Minister, about implementation—the deliverability and what that looks like at this stage of development. We're having to wait 18 months or so for some pretty key frameworks on guidance, not least on the more sensitive areas of the curriculum, which doesn't give practitioners or the range of co-constructors—'co-producers' I still prefer to call them—time to get to grips with this by the time it gets to 2022. So I'm wondering if you can give us some steer on why you think, bearing in mind the enormous amount of work that's already gone into this, that we're having to wait quite so long for detailed frameworks and guidance on those more sensitive areas.
Populating the curriculum with material still remains, of course, a core challenge at this point of development. The guidelines, such as they are, are helpful, and I'm not saying that they're not, but inevitably existing teachers I suspect will still be relying on their body of knowledge, and even some of their resources that they already have, to decide what they're going to do when they go into school on a Monday morning and have to stand up in front of a class of year 7. I think, by the sound of it, that it's the secondary schools that are going to find this change more of a challenge, if I can put it like that.

Suzy Davies AC: So, just looking at the £39 million that, over some years, you've already allocated to getting teachers ready for this new curriculum, can you give us some indication of how much of that is going to go to creating time for curriculum designers—both within and among schools? What have the teachers told you so far about how they're going to be able to manage these absences or need for absences, how to create that non-contact time within the school day? I heard your exhortation not to run too quickly with this, but actually, time is running out—2022 is not that far away. And of course, we'll be looking shortly at legislation, which leaves me a little bit concerned that some of the work on this key element of deliverability implementation, if you like, remains to be completed, and so I have to ask: what will be completed by the time we're at a stage where we're being invited to table amendments to your legislation?
You talk about co-construction and practitioners extensively in your statement, and for pedagogy I completely see the purpose in that, but you didn't say anything about communities and families in this co-construction picture. I think that this is going to be essential, particularly for those more sensitive and compulsory areas of the curriculum if they're to work, and to avoid agitated families choosing home schooling for their children in protest at what looks like the loss of their right to withdraw.
Can you give us some indication at this stage of, for example, your faith, BAME, I think it's called 'community involvement group', if I'm right, whether that is going to be a central forum or whether there are going to be localised versions of that? Because I'm very keen to understand the role of the community at local level in devising that local curriculum. If there is going to be local input from the community, particularly families, who will be responsible for drawing all that local work together if, as I hope, it's not just about practitioners? What will be the role of the consortia in that particular piece of work? And perhaps just again, as a heads up—I don't expect you to be able to answer that today—but if you can give us some indication of how many withdrawals there have been and perhaps on what grounds over, say, the last five years, so that we can get some elements of early understanding about the problem that could arise as a result of removing parents' rights to withdraw.
Could you also give us an indication of how children who are already home schooled through parental choice, but also children who are educated other than at school for other reasons, how they're going to access this new curriculum, particularly as many of them rely on independent external support for the education that they're offering children? I think I've already raised concerns with you about who can access the Hwb platform, and at the moment, independent schools won't be allowed to do that. But I'd like some indication of whether you think independent education providers, other than independent schools, might be able to do that to make sure that are our education-other-than-at-school children aren't disadvantaged.
And then, on the issue of prescription, I know exactly where you stand on it. I know you don't want it. I applaud you—I have to say this—for at least referring to emergency lifesaving skills in the guidance. But I wonder if it's asking just a little bit too much. If you could nudge it a little bit further by asking schools to give reasons why they don't include it rather than merely permitting them to include it, because that's not actually moving things on from where we are now. There are so many providers and organisations prepared to do this work, it's not as if demand couldn't be easily met by schools, and I don't want them finding reasons not to do this.
I'll leave others—because I'm sure this will happen—to raise with you the issue of status and presence of what you call 'the Welsh dimension' in the curriculum. I'll leave that to somebody else.
But there is one more specific I would like to ask of you, actually, Minister. This week, of course, we're reminding ourselves of the horrors of the Holocaust. This is not just history or a point of illustration about genocide or equalities; this is something I think really has to be embedded into our collective DNA. Not just because of the Poles and the Jews and the Roma and the disabled and the LGBT victims, but precisely because it is unimaginable. There is nothing to prevent teaching about the Holocaust, and I accept everything we heard from the Deputy Minister earlier, but would you consider raising the prominence of the Holocaust within the guidance when it goes out to further consultation? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I begin by thanking Suzy Davies for the points she raised and the question she asked? She firstly talked about implementation. And as I said in my statement, we will publish an implementation plan later on this term. I want practitioners and interested parties to be able to spend the next couple of weeks reading what is a quite extensive document, and beginning their thought process before, suddenly, they also have from Government an implementation plan. I want them to engage in this document, to think about what's written here, and to begin that thought process. But it is clear that then we will need to set out a series of points and pieces of work that individual schools will need to do between now and September 2022, to ensure that everybody is in the right place, and is moving along at pace in their preparedness.
What I talked about in terms of additional guidance, there has been a clear ask from people for some additional support in this area. Although you will have seen from what we've published today, we have been very detailed in each area of learning and experience, with each of the 'what matters' statements below that, and the progression steps. What we will providing in guidance is some extra, additional information, on top of what is an already very comprehensive steer as to what should be included in those areas. But, clearly, when thinking about subjects that, understandably, people feel very strongly about, with regard to religion, values and ethics, and relationship education, because of their concerns about what that might include, we want to be very explicit about what it is, and perhaps even more importantly, what it is not. And I have to say, I've been slightly concerned by some of the correspondence I have received over the last week, where there is a great misunderstanding about what is currently taught in schools, and what our expectation is that schools will teach in the future. So, to give reassurance to parents and communities about what we will expect their children's teachers to teach them, we want to be more explicit to be able to provide that confidence over what are, understandably, sensitive issues, and people want some reassurance.
To that end, the involved group will sit alongside our group of constructors that will look at that guidance, especially with regard to relationship education. But you will have seen in the document that I have produced today that we have been very clear about what we envisage will be the principles that will underpin the guidance around relationship education. They're based on the principles from the UN of what qualifies as best practice in teaching these subjects to children and young people.
I know the Member shares my concern that, when it comes to these areas, we have a responsibility to ensure that our children are safe. Our children are growing up in a world that is so very, very different, Deputy Presiding Officer, in terms of access to information around relationships and sexuality. Gone are the days when we passed a copy of Judy Blume around the class so that we could learn more about periods. And when we got a little bit older, gone are the days when we had a Jackie Collins novel, which we passed around the classroom again, and that's how we found out that information. It seems incredibly tame now, doesn't it? But our children are literally a few clicks away on one of these from some terrifying images. We saw recently from experts in the field the proportion of obscene pictures of young people—the proportion of things that are actually posted by young people themselves, unaware of the damage and the danger that they can place themselves in. I believe we have a responsibility to educate our children to keep them safe, and the principles that will underpin our education in this area are the principles of best practice from the United Nations.
With regard to professional learning, you will be aware that the vast majority of that money is passed directly to headteachers and school leaders, because it is they who understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And we can't possibly know all of that from the centre. We trust in those school leaders to be able to design a professional learning programme that meets the needs of their particular staff, and that professional learning can take place in lots of different ways. The call to me from the unions was a continuation of that funding. Because you'll be aware there was funding in the previous two years; professionals were concerned that that funding would come to an end, and I'm delighted that we've been able to make a funding commitment for the new financial year. Each school will be required to publish its professional learning plan, so that we can see—or anybody who's interested can see—how that money is being used in the professional learning of staff in that particular way.
With regard to further—I think the Member referred to further consultation. This is the final version of this document—there's no further consultation on what is being published today. This is it, so we won't be going back out on this. With regard to the legislation—that legislation, which will be published after the Easter recess, will be subject to the usual scrutiny process here. This document does outline what we will use legislation—the curriculum and assessment Bill—to do, in terms of legislating for the four purposes, the areas of learning and experience, and our intention to have a code with regard to the 'what matters' statements. You will also be aware that we will need to then ensure that the legislation also takes into consideration the curriculum needs and expectations for pupil referral units, and indeed education that is received by children other than at school. And the curriculum and assessment Bill will clearly state our expectations in that regard, recognising some core elements that all providers will have to produce, but recognising that in some cases, in the best interests of the children, some aspects of the curriculum will be disallowed, because that's in the best interests of that particular learner.
The Member began her contribution by talking about children sitting 12 or 13 GCSEs. As I said in my statement, Qualifications Wales is in the first part of their consultation on what the future of qualifications will be like. And I'm sure that not only the content but also the desirability, or the necessity, of sitting 12 or 13 GCSEs will form part of that examination, because it certainly is a challenge. But that is further work to be done.

Siân Gwenllian AC: This afternoon I would like to pursue two specific issues—these issues won't be new to you; I have raised them in the past—first of all, implementing the new curriculum. Your statement today does acknowledge, of course, that implementing the change is the major challenge, and that there is international evidence that demonstrates that that has been clear in other scenarios. And the other point that I just want to discuss a little more is how do you reconcile making some issues statutory, whilst exempting others from the legislation?
Now, there's no doubt that introducing the new curriculum is going to be a major change in education in Wales, and you've told us today that schools should take time to understand the curriculum model. And so I'd like to ask you first: do you agree that understanding the new curriculum model will be more of a challenge for the secondary sector than the primary sector? Is the primary sector, particularly given the development of the foundation phase, more ready or prepared for this new vision and understanding of the curriculum model?
You mention the need for schools to co-plan and plan jointly. Now, in order to do that, schools must have the space to come together. And you say again in your statement today that schools need to make time and space to understand the curriculum model, and not to rush the process of implementing the new curriculum. Now, I would agree entirely with that, but creating that space is going to cost. You will need to employ supply teachers and so on and so forth. So, how do you see that working on a practical level, and, again, do you think it would be easier to create the space for the co-construction in the primary sector, where there are fewer children, first of all, in primary schools as compared to with the secondary sector? And to return to the international evidence that I mentioned at the outset, what lessons can be learned from this evidence in considering implementing the curriculum in the secondary sector specifically?
Of course, in your response you will talk about in-service training days and how that is going to help to give schools the space and time that they need, but that can only help to a certain extent. And I'm sure you will mention the additional £39 million that is being designated for INSET training, but is that enough? This is my concern. I believe that if this is going to succeed, and we all want to see it succeed, then we need a substantial injection of funding to support the implementation of the curriculum. The schools are already on their knees, and there is a great risk that in introducing such a huge change at a time of financial austerity, there is a risk that it will fail.
And therefore I ask you and ask the Government more generally—I know that you are arguing for more funding for education, but this is a question for the whole Government, if truth be told. Doesn't the Government need to have some sort of reality check here and realise that we need hundreds of millions of pounds in addition in order to make this new curriculum a success, not the relatively small sums that are being considered at the moment? We need a substantial injection of funding to generate the success that we all want to see.
And just to discuss this second point—I know we've discussed it in the past, but I'm still trying to understand how you reconcile making certain issues a statutory part of the curriculum, whilst not doing so with other aspects in the legislation. I think you're entirely right in including sex and healthy relationship education and religious education, or whatever the new terminology is in that particular area now. I think it's very important that those are a statutory part of the experience of every young person. But how do you reconcile including those, but not including two hours of physical education, issues related to mental well-being, the history of Wales? Now, those aren't going to be a statutory part of the curriculum, so where is the consistency in making one section a requirement, whilst others aren't?
Now, we've had this conversation on a number of occasions in the past, and I know that we will get the same response again today, perhaps, but we are agreed that these issues are important, and I know that you strongly believe that Welsh identity and the history of Wales, or the histories of Wales are important, but is there another way, therefore, rather than including them in the curriculum—is there another way of ensuring that they are taught in every school without the force of legislation underpinning them? That's the crucial question, I suppose, as we are agreed that these issues do need to be taught. How are we going to achieve that unless they're included in the legislation?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much to Siân for her contribution. Firstly, we talked about the space and the time to prepare. Those are important considerations. That's why I took a decision to, first of all, delay the introduction of the curriculum to give us more time, and I took the decision to alter the way in which the curriculum would be implemented by having a phased roll-out approach in the secondary sector, rather than a big-bang approach that had been originally advised to me. Because Siân Gwenllian is correct: a move to the new curriculum does present, in many ways, a bigger challenge to our colleaguesin the secondary sector than it does in the primary sector, where what we're seeing is a natural extension to many of the pedagogical principles that have underpinned our foundation phase. That's why, therefore, it has been especially important to be able to have a phased roll-out in the secondary sector, to allow for greater time for adjustment and for professional learning and for preparedness.

Kirsty Williams AC: Siân Gwenllian is right to say that I'm going to mention the additional INSET day; if she had seen some of the responses to the consultation on that INSET day, she will have seen that, in some sectors, that is not a popular thing to have done. But it is a necessary thing to increase, once again, the time available to schools. We've been very clear in the document that we've published today about the need to collaborate not only within a school, but with networks of schools, whether that be in a locality, whether that be across phase with regards to primary talking to secondary talking to FE colleges, or whether that needs to be in a subject specialism or an AoLE specialism.
Of course, that additional day that we have made available over a number of years isn't the only day that schools have; they have the existing INSET provisions that they can use to utilise this. And of course, some of our best professional learning happens when children are in school, so we need a mixed approach. That's why we're devolving the resources that we have for professional learning.
The money that has been made available for the last two years, and will be made available again, represents the largest single investment in the teaching profession since devolution started, and rightly so, Deputy Presiding Officer—and rightly so. Those resources are also being complemented by investment by this Government in new national networks to support pedagogy and practice, and that is coming at a time when there is still not an insignificant squeeze on this Welsh Government's budget, but we have been able to deliver increases to our local authorities. I hope that those local authorities will be as good as their word in the commitments that they gave to myself, the finance Minister and the Minister for local government, where they all want to prioritise education spending.
I was delighted this morning to be in Pen y Fai Church in Wales Primary School in the county borough of Bridgend, and to hear from the leader of Bridgend his plans to use the extra money that's been made available to prioritise education spend. I welcome that commitment from him very much indeed. That comes on top of the increase in the education budget, which as I said is funding a range of initiatives to support implementation. But I'm not shying away from the need to examine forensically the level of education spend in Wales, and to do that on an independent basis. Luke Sibieta will report before the end of the summer term, and that is really important.
But I would say to Siân Gwenllian: I too would like hundreds of millions of pounds extra to spend on education, but when calling for that you have to tell me where we don't spend money, because that is the consequence of the situation we find ourselves in—either where we don't spend money or where you want that extra revenue raised from.
With regard to what is statutory and what is not statutory, the rationale behind what we have published today is, first of all, it remains true to the principles and the recommendations in the original 'Successful Futures' report. It is also complemented by a recommendation by the expert group that I convened on relationship education that made a very clear recommendation to me that this also should be a statutory part of the curriculum. And I would have to say to the Member: where in this document can she point to a lack of commitment on behalf of me or this Welsh Government to the issue of mental health and well-being?
One of the most important aspects of this curriculum reform is the inclusion of an area of learning and experience that is dedicated to the health and well-being of our children. That is new to what we have had in the past. And if you read the 'what matters' statements and if you read the progression steps, you will see very clearly a strong emphasis on ensuring that children learn about emotions, learn about how those emotions can affect their well-being, how they can seek help for when they feel overwhelmed, and how they can build their resilience.
With regard to Welsh histories, and I'm glad she used the word Welsh 'histories'—it seems it's okay for some of us to use that term and maybe not for others. But I do agree with her that histories need to be taught in a pluralistic way. If she turns to page 23 of the document we've published today on the guidance that we're giving schools on how they develop their own curriculum design, it says, and I quote:
'Schools and practitioners should have a vision to develop a curriculum which: contributes to learners' realisation of the four purposes and acquisition of the integral skills which underpin them; supports the development of their learners' sense of identity in Wales'.
It then goes on, on page 30, to give explicit guidance on 'Designing a curriculum in Wales and for Wales'. And I quote again:
'The Framework reflects Wales, its cultural heritage and diversity, its languages and the values, histories and traditions of its communities and all of its people. Instilling learners with passion and pride in themselves, their communities and their country is central to the four purposes.'
We are absolutely explicit. And I have to say, confining that just to Welsh history lessons actually deprives us of the opportunity that is clearly stated in this document and the expectation that designing a curriculum in Wales and for Wales needs to cover every single area of learning and experience. If she can point to me in this document a lack of commitment to that, then I'd like to see it.

Thank you. I know it's a very important subject, but we have less than 10 minutes left and we have three speakers. So, if I could just ask Members to reflect on that. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you. I completely endorse your approach to relationship and sexuality education, making it compulsory, because in the context of the most advantaged, least deprived secondary school in my constituency, these phones are a major problem. Because they have the police in every single week trying to explain to young people, if they're sharing compromising photographs on their phones, it is going to come back and bite them, either financially or they're going to be sexually exploited. Unless we can get everybody to understand that, we have a major problem.
We also know that it's absolutely vital that young people are given non-judgmental guidance on what positive relationships look like, so that the child who's being asked to do inappropriate things is empowered to say 'no' and knows where to go. I find it hypocritical that organisations that have failed to safeguard children and young people adequately from predatory adults are then at the forefront of saying that this should be left to parents. Equally, it's unacceptable that a child of nine has no idea why they're bleeding between the legs because nobody's bothered to tell them about monthly periods.
Equally, I feel that the humanists association has got the wrong end of the stick in saying that religious education as a core part of the curriculum is ramming religion down children's throats, because we have to deconstruct religious values and ethics into different areas of teaching and learning so that every child knows the history of religion, which after all has been the cause of more wars than practically anything else, and we continue to have wars fought over religion. So, we need to understand all that. And in a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious world, we're not going to get very far in teaching respect for difference if we can't ensure all young people understand that people have different beliefs, and ensure that we have core values and ethics, honesty, truthfulness, kindness and empathy.
Suzy Davies mentioned the lessons learned from the Holocaust. Well, Dr Martin Stern, who spoke at city hall yesterday, was really clear that what we have to learn from all these 50 genocides that have occurred since the second world war is an understanding that ordinary people can become monsters. He talked about his Bosnian friend who was interrogated by his former science teacher, who had made the transition from being a pedagogue to a murderer. So, all these things; it is vital that we are building up the core curriculum to ensure that we have a civilised society that everybody understands.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her support with regard to these two very important parts of the curriculum? I would point all Members to page 38 of the document, where we explain in some detail that:
'Children begin to learn about relationships long before they start school. As soon as they enter the social world they will be encountering and interacting with complex and often contradictory messages'.
Just think about the messages that both young men and young women are bombarded with about how they should look, how they should act in a relationship. I think it was last week or the week before last we had a very powerful debate in this very Chamber about rape and instances of rape. It's absolutely vital that we teach all of our children about principles of consent and how to be a loving, respectful partner in a relationship.
We have long debated the scourge of domestic violence in our society. Again, we need to teach our children about what a healthy relationship looks like. This Government is doing a lot of work with its 'This is Not Love' campaign, but it is a damning condemnation of us as a society that we need to do that. If we're to radically change some of these issues that are facing women and men in our community, then our best hope of doing that is via education, and ensuring that our children, from the youngest age, understand their role, their rights and their responsibilities as part of a relationship.
Now, clearly, that has to be done in an age-appropriate way. How you will talk about these issues with a primary school child is very different to how you will talk about these issues to a 16-year-old. But if we don't, and if we don't provide this space and this opportunity for young people, they will find other ways of finding this information out—or should I say other ways of finding out disinformation; information that can frighten and confuse them, information that can make them feel unsafe and unworthy. Like the young man who spoke to me about his addiction to porn and how that made him feel as a young man and what he thought was expected of him as a young man. If we're concerned about our children's mental health, if we're concerned about our children's well-being, then we have to do these lessons. And all children have a fundamental right to access the full curriculum, and I believe that very, very strongly.
Now, you're right: we're changing religious studies to religion, values and ethics, to better reflect the nature of that part of the curriculum. But if we're to have ethical, informed citizens of the world, how can we not teach children about religion? How can we not teach them about the right to hold religious views and to be respectful of that, even if your views are different? The Member makes a very good point, the horror of the Holocaust and the horror of Srebrenica are perfect examples of how we can work across the curriculum. Not learning about that simply in a history lesson, but learning it in a lesson about religion, values and ethics; learning about it in literature as well as in humanities; expressing the horror of that through our expressive arts: drama, dance, art itself. Those topics are perfect enablers and symbols and important points in the history of the world where we can reinforce that importance of rights, human rights and respect, which again runs through the entirety of the curriculum.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for the way in which she has sought to reassure parents, and indeed educators, about the approach that she wants to take in this new curriculum, particularly to sex and relationships education, and indeed to religious education? I speak as a person of faith with an interest in faith and who partners with faith groups of all different types on all sorts of different matters, and I know that a lot of what you've said will chime very much with them.
But there is, of course, one challenge, if you like, which has been laid at the Welsh Government's door by those people who fundamentally believe that it is a parent's responsibility to educate their child. And, as you will know and be aware, it's a parent's right, if they want to, to withdraw their child from state education altogether and to home educate their children, because of that fundamental position of a parent having the primary responsibility for education. So, I do think that the concerns that have been expressed about the withdrawal of parental rights to be able to take a child out of a classroom for certain elements of education that people feel uncomfortable about, that parents might feel uncomfortable about, is an important right that has been something that I think has been appreciated by parents for many, many years, and your previous commitments to maintaining that right were very much appreciated.
I've heard your assurances, I understand your assurances, and I know that they will be accepted by a great many parents across the country. I believe very much that the sensitive way that you're trying to map out the future of these very important subjects is to be applauded, in my view. But I do think that the opportunity to withdraw a child from any part of the curriculum should still be there for parents, and I would urge you to just reconsider your position on that and how you might be able to enable parents to withdraw their children from elements of the lesson where there's a clear intention to teach about certain subjects. I'm sure that there are ways that these things can be done and work-arounds that can be put into place, and I just ask that—. You've been very much in listening mode during the creation of this curriculum, and I ask that you would continue to be in listening mode, particularly around parental concerns, about the erosion of that right to withdraw children in the future.

Kirsty Williams AC: Can I thank Darren Millar for the points that he made? I absolutely accept the point about the rights of parents to educate their children, and nothing that we are proposing here takes away from that. I'm sure all of us would agree that the vast majority of parents are in a position to do that successfully, but not all of our children are so lucky, Darren; not all of our children are so lucky to have parents who can do this for them for a whole variety of reasons.
Darren, you've spent a great deal of time talking about the rights of parents, which I don't want to undermine, but my perspective comes from the right of a child; the right of a child to receive a broad and balanced education and to be able to access every single part of the curriculum. I understand the sensitivities associated with this and they're often coming—. I understand.
We are committed to working hard over the next two and a half years before there are changes to the right to withdraw to reassure parents and communities about the nature of the curriculum. And as I said earlier, I think it's really important that all children, when thinking about relationship and sexuality education, have lessons with regard to rights and equity, learning about relationships, learning about sex and gender, learning about bodies and body image, as well as sexual health and well-being, and violence, safety and support. And those will be the principles that underpin our approach to RSE, and I'm not aware of any child who doesn't need to learn about those things if they're to grow up to fulfil one of the purposes of our curriculum, which is to be happy, confident individuals. Relationships are fundamental to us as human beings, and we need to ensure that our children are educated so they can form successful and happy ones.

And finally, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement and add my thanks to you, your officials and the many, many people who, on the ground, have worked really, really hard to deliver this?
I was at a conference yesterday looking at the whole-school approach, where some teachers were presenting on the health and well-being AoLE, and the enthusiasm that teachers have for this on the ground is palpable, and that is very much to be welcomed.
I also wanted to give a very warm welcome to your decision to remove the parental right to withdraw. I've just come now from a cross-party group on suicide prevention where we've had a presentation on the review of deaths of young people by suicide, and a significant proportion of those deaths were linked to sexual abuse. So, I wonder whether you would agree with me that it is absolutely crucial that all young people have access to relationship education that teaches them about consent. Also, around the issues of equality, I wonder whether you would agree with me that the young people who most need equality-based relationship education are precisely those young people who do not get this education at home. This is, as you say, a fundamental mental health issue but also, absolutely, a children's right issue.

Kirsty Williams AC: I thank Lynne Neagle for her comments, and I'm delighted to hear that there were practitioners yesterday talking in such warm terms about the health and well-being AoLE. You and I were both in the ministerial task and finish group yesterday, and we heard from the primary school headteacher representative about the opportunity that the new curriculum gives them, and she was very excited about it.
The health and well-being AoLE looks to, specifically in terms of what matters, develop children's understanding that physical health and well-being have lifelong benefits; that how we process and respond to experiences affects our mental health and our emotional well-being; and also that our emotional decision-making impacts on the quality of our lives and on the lives of others; and that how we engage with social influences shapes who we are and affects our health and well-being; and, lastly, that healthy relationships are fundamental to our well-being as human beings.
Those are the 'what matters' statements that underpin our health and well-being AoLE, and they chime precisely with the need for all children to access that to address good mental health and well-being in the way that you have just described, Lynne. To have this on an equal path with traditional subjects of education gives us a real opportunity to address some of the social problems that this parliament spends a lot of time talking about, and responds to what children and young people themselves are crying out for.

Thank you very much, Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language: Cymraeg 2050 Annual Report 2018-19

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language: Cymraeg 2050 Annual Report 2018-19. I call on the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language—Eluned Morgan.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much.
It's a pleasure to present our report on the journey to a million Welsh speakers. We've been busy. As I say in the foreword to the annual report, it can feel like a lot of time has passed since we launched Cymraeg 2050, because it really has caught the imagination of people across Wales and beyond.
But, remember that only two years have passed since it was published, and that we're still in the early days. This is a period of laying the foundations but, despite that, you'll see signs of progress in relation to the early years, more Welsh-medium provision, and more people learning Welsh as adults, whether through the National Centre for Learning Welsh, or other means.
But, big changes call for taking big steps, and our work across a number of areas is making a difference. What we have in this report is a snapshot of a period in time—between April 2018 and March 2019. But, we have continued with the work and we've achieved a lot beyond the period in question. For instance, we've introduced regulations that, for the first time, set targets for every county in relation to their contribution to increasing Welsh-medium education, and the Welsh in Education Strategic Plans (Wales) Regulations 2019 came into force on 1 January this year.
Increasing the number of teachers who are able to teach our children through the medium of Welsh is something we take seriously. In November, we conducted the first annual census of the school workforce to learn more about teachers' Welsh language skills across Wales. This supports programmes that already exist, such as initial teacher training and education programmes; the financial incentive, Iaith Athrawon Yfory; the Welsh language sabbatical scheme; work with the regional consortia; and the e-sgol project, which will support the availability of subjects and fair choice.
Making sure that pupils move with the Welsh language from one period of education to the next is also important. We've also agreed to allocate £145,000 in 2019-20 to encourage more learners to follow Welsh at A-level and at university.

Eluned Morgan AC: In relation to increasing use of the language, last year, a memorandum of understanding was signed between the Welsh Government and the Welsh Language Commissioner. All of the work being done by our grant partners in our communities continues to give opportunities to people of all abilities to use Welsh. And the Welsh Government is developing an internal strategy to become a bilingual organisation by 2050. And in terms of infrastructure, we all know how important a solid technological foundation is in any language, and we've been taking steps under the Welsh language technology action plan, launched in October 2018.
From reading the report you'll see that its scope is very broad, and touches on portfolios across the Government. Donning my cap as Minister for international relations, I'm always looking for exciting opportunities for joint working between the Welsh language and international portfolios. You'll have heard about our work celebrating the UNESCO Year of Indigenous Languages last year, and the superb conference Gŵyl Ein Llais yn y Byd, the Our Voice in the World Festival, was held in November in Aberystwyth.
I want Wales to be seen leading on language planning, thus building on the reputation we already have internationally, and why we're setting up Prosiect 2050. And there’s a lot of collaboration between Wales and other countries that promote languages. We are members of the European network to promote linguistic diversity, and lead the British-Irish Council languages group.
By travelling abroad and seeing what we're doing in Wales through other people's eyes, it becomes evident that we have a tendency in general to think negatively about what we're doing here in relation to the Welsh language. There is a tendency amongst some people to speak of 'protecting' and 'loss' and the 'death' of the language, rather than 'celebrating' and 'growing' and 'planning'. I do think that it's important that we raise our sight and our aspirations.
But what I've seen from speaking to others is that Wales and the Welsh language are an inspiration to the speakers of other languages, and that they continue to learn about our plans for acquiring Welsh and promoting its use. Of course, we also have lessons to learn from Ireland and Scotland and the Basque Country as we consider how we convey ourselves to our fellow Welsh people and the world at large.
The story of the Welsh language can so easily be one of fun, positivity, unity and support, where we work together to reach a million speakers. Look at how members of our international women's football team are learning Welsh together and sharing their journey on social media as an example of that. And I'm looking forward to seeing the language taking a prominent place once again at the Euros next summer, just as it was in 2016.
There’s no doubt that we can do more to create favourable conditions to encourage people to use Welsh. Research conducted a few years ago suggested that some people said they weren't very confident in their Welsh and were afraid of being criticised—even though they hadn't, perhaps, had that experience themselves. So there's something holding them back, and that's disappointing to me. Welsh is a language for everyone in Wales, and sometimes, we have to take a look at ourselves, and make every effort to break down any barriers that prevent people from taking part. We need to turn 'them' into 'us'
We are developing our understanding of people’s behaviour in relation to language, of the types of messages that motivate people and make it easier for them to use Welsh—socially, in the family, the school community or the workplace. Reaching a million speakers will mean creating new speakers. And we have a good track record in Wales of welcoming people to Welsh. Our immersion centres for latecomers to Welsh-medium education have broken new ground and are a national treasure. And if we go back to the last time we had about a million Welsh speakers, at the start of the twentieth century, our communities played an important role in integrating people who moved to Wales. A number of them becamekeen advocates for the language. And that’s an important message for us to remember as we think of how we speak about Welsh.
I want to put Wales and the Welsh language on the map as being modern, welcoming and vibrant. Our bilingualism can be a genuine advantage economically. We have a bilingual workforce, a unique culture and a story to tell. That’s why I'm presenting this annual report to you and why I'm proud of what we've achieved. And I want to pay tribute as well to the Minister who was my predecessor who was partly responsible for this period. We're not just proud about this reporting period, but since then, as well as our plans for the future. Young people—all of us, truth be told—identify with success, with hope for a bright future, and we have to show them that the Welsh language is one of those success stories.

Suzy Davies AC: As the aim of 1 million Welsh speakers is supported across the board, or almost across the board, I'm more than happy to recognise the work that’s been done by the Government and the work that you've mentioned in your statement today. I would like to say a few words, because I was particularly pleased to see what’s written in the report itself on Wales beyond our borders. I don't know if you have time to tell us a little more about that, and also TAN 20, because I'm not sure where that planning authorities are all open to this idea of seeing this as an opportunity for the language, particularly in terms of education, rather than seeing it in negative terms. As with all strategies, of course, you need carrots and sticks, but it’s difficult, and perhaps impossible, in my view, to force people to accept help or to use the Welsh language in their daily lives. I would like to know a little more about the carrots that you're considering implementing before the next report.
I welcome the work that’s been done in early years education, particularly through apprenticeships. Could I ask you how difficult it is to find employers who can offer Welsh language apprenticeships in other areas, specifically in the private sector? I'm thinking about hospitality and retail particularly, those are front-facing jobs and have a prominent role in terms of the prominence of the Welsh language on our streets and in our daily lives. I don’t think standards are the solution to this challenge, but it is withe considering what kind of carrot would be most appropriate.
Perhaps I could also ask about the elements of the Welsh language included in apprenticeships or school or college courses that are provided through the medium of English, because I know that there are certain elements provided in Welsh, but I don't know too much about them. And what's the standard? Are they robust as part of those courses?
In terms of the numbers of teachers, despite the steps that you've mentioned in your statement, it is clear that there is still a problem in persuading young people to seek training, not just in Welsh, but to actually study Welsh as a subject. So, why do you think that that persists as a problem and what have you been discussing with the Education Workforce Council and Qualifications Wales as to how the teaching of Welsh will look in the secondary sector, particularly in the future and particularly in light of the introduction of the new curriculum, because those changes are going to be crucial? I’d also like to know how this is to be provided to young people who are educated other than at school—the EOTAS—and how they can engage with what’s available in terms of increasing the use of the Welsh language.
Now, in terms of Welsh in the workplace, I’ve raised this in the past, and you have responded with some details about the helpline and individuals working with both large and small companies, and, course, with Welsh for adults where the main focus is still on the public sector. I understand why, of course, because standards do require this, but are you yet in a position to share some of the qualitative outcomes of some of these programmes, not just the number of people who become immersed in them, but how many people have seen their Welsh language improve, or how many people use the language with more confidence or use it more often as a result of this?
I agree with you 100 per cent, I must say, Minister, on the points that you made about people who aren't confident in using the Welsh language. It’s a very personal issue in terms of language of choice, and you as Minister—. It sends a very strong message for you to say that not everyone has to be word perfect in their use of the Welsh language, but, of course, I'm not arguing that we should seek to undermine quality. But we do need to take into account that there is a large percentage of learners in formal education or those who come from Welsh-speaking backgrounds but who don't use the language very often, and we can't afford to lose them, because they are core to this strategy. I would like to hear a little more on that particular point.
And, finally, I welcome the targets in the WESPs now; I'm pleased to see them. But what would you do if councils were to fail in terms of their new targets? What’s it going to take for you to reconsider the need for new legislation in this area? And is there any chance that we will have legislation to assist us if the councils do fail in delivering those targets? I know there’s more to legislation than that, but thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much; there were many questions there.
First of all, may I say how encouraging it is that we are operating on a cross-party basis towards this target of 1 million Welsh speakers? I think that does give a very clear message within and outwith Wales, and this is a message that we're trying to share in Northern Ireland, for example, to show that there is a journey that you can follow as a nation on an issue that perhaps used to be sensitive, but that has become now something that is accepted by society in general.
I do think that there is an opportunity for us to talk about the Welsh language outside our borders, and I'm willing to talk more about that sometime, but just to give you an idea: recently I went to UNESCO to speak to them about how they can perhaps use us as a model of what we can do, what we have done, and in particular in areas such as technology. There was a great deal of interest from them in hearing more about that.
We have had a positive response, I think, with regard to the WESPs, and we've been collaborating very closely with local councils. I think what’s important is that we bring councils and their populations with us on this journey. This is something where I think it’s very difficult to try to force someone to take the Welsh language seriously as a subject and to take it as the way that they want Welsh to be taught full time in their schools. So, we need to convince people. We've done that, I think, but the WESPs and the fact that we have 10 years now to plan is a great help. So, I agree that it's about convincing people and not compelling them; that’s the best way of moving this forward.
There are many things that we can do in terms of use of the language. Certainly, there are different ways of using the carrot. One example of this was with capital funding that we used to try to encourage some authorities to go further with their plans. So, there was £30 million in addition that was directly allocated to those local authorities that were willing to open new Welsh-medium schools. So, there is a carrot there.
In terms of apprenticeships, around 12 per cent of apprenticeships and those involved in work in our communities and our colleges—around 12 per cent of those do include an element of the Welsh language. It’s true to say that having apprenticeships in the areas of care and childcare is perhaps much easier than in the private sector. So, I do think that there is further work to be done in some of those areas that you talked about with regard to hospitality and retail. And that’s why what we're trying to do is to raise awareness of language use through schemes such as Cymraeg Gwaith, so that people can see the advantages of using the Welsh language and then perhaps they'll take on an apprentice as part of their development.
In terms of teaching Welsh as a subject, well, this is something that we are trying to encourage people to do at A-level. You’ll see that we’ve allocated an additional £150,000 to try to encourage people in this area to go from GCSE to A-level and then onwards to university. English, also, is facing difficulties in this regard, so it’s not just an issue for the Welsh language.
In terms of use of the Welsh language, I have been urging groups such the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to ensure that they do more in the social sphere. And things such as Dydd Miwsig Cymru, Welsh Language Music Day, is coming up and that’s an opportunity for people to ensure that there’s an opportunity to socialise through the medium of Welsh.
There is work to do on language transmission and we do have a scheme that we're preparing at the moment, and that will be coming out very soon. But we are aware that we need to see what those factors are that do encourage people to use the Welsh language—to switch from using the English language to using the Welsh language in those social spheres.
In terms of standards of Welsh, I do think it’s important that we do raise the confidence of people who speak Welsh and who make the effort to do so. We shouldn’t criticise or judge and it’s important that we should silence the language police. So, I do hope that that message has gone out clearly. Of course, we do need to have standards, but we do need to strike the balance.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you for the statement. Now, throughout all of this, there is one particular question that constantly arises in my mind, and that is a question on funding: how can you reconcile the Government's current budget for the Welsh language for the next financial year with the ambition in the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy? Although various Ministers have contradicted each other, as we understand it, this Government will spend less on the Welsh language in 2020-21 than it will do in the current financial year. I do understand that my colleague Llyr Gruffydd, the Chair of the Finance Committee, has written to you asking for clarity on this issue, but he's received no response to date. Our understanding, therefore, is that the settlement for the Welsh language budget is flat, is below inflation, and is less than the average increase in the budget more generally.
This lack of funding is starting to emerge already, and I'm going to mention two examples that have been drawn to my attention. First of all, there will be cuts in the Welsh for adults budget. According to the information that I've received locally, I do understand that the centre for learning Welsh in Bangor will lose up to £100,000 next year. That's less money for Welsh for adults, and, therefore, fewer opportunities for adults to learn Welsh. Now, how on earth can you reconcile that with the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy? Isn't increasing the number of adults learning Welsh core to the target of creating 1 million Welsh speakers?
Secondly, I'd like to take the opportunity to question you on the budget of the National Eisteddfod.From my understanding, there was an intention to allocate funding for the Ceredigion and the Llŷn eisteddfods so that the organisers could offer reduced-price tickets, which is a wonderful idea, and you will all recall that this happened very successfully in the Cardiff Eisteddfod, which was available free of charge. There was no charge for entry, and I think that in Llanrwst, you could enter the field free of charge on the Sunday. I think the original intention was to allow the Llŷn and Ceredigion Eisteddfods to put arrangements in place in order to reduce the price of tickets in order to reach out, to attract new people to the Eisteddfod and to increase people's confidence in the use of the Welsh language, as we've discussed here. So, will you confirm that that is no longer your intention and that the budget that had been originally put in place for the Eisteddfod is also subject to cuts? And how do you reconcile that u-turn with your desire to see more people using the Welsh language and making the Welsh language more accessible to more people? How does it accord with the 2050 strategy and the 1 million Welsh speakers vision?
And, finally, I would like to know whether the savings in these two areas that I've mentioned this afternoon—and perhaps there may be savings in other areas in relation to the Welsh language today—are these savings to be used for other priorities, and what are those other priorities that you're considering? Are those other priorities within the Welsh language portfolio or are they priorities that relate to your responsibilities in other parts of your portfolio—for example, the international strategy? We need clarity on all of this, please.
Two brief questions to conclude: there's an additional £14 million in 2020-1 for FE colleges. How much of that additional budget will be provided to Welsh-medium education? And then, as a result of additional funding for HE and apprenticeships next year, how much additional funding will the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol have in order to expand Welsh-medium education and apprenticeships? These are questions that we would like some clarity on this afternoon.
At the end of the day, it'll all come down to money. With the budget for the Welsh language shrinking, how are we to believe that your Government is truly serious about creating 1 million Welsh speakers, and how can we give proper attention to the report on the 2050 strategy, when we know that there are efforts in place to undermine the Welsh language budget?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, may I start by making it clear that there have been no cuts in the Welsh language budget? There will be no cut in the Welsh language budget. I don't know how many times I can state that. In addition to that, the £6.5 million that Plaid Cymru agreed to in the previous budget—we have maintained that funding, so that funding has gone towards the budget as well. In addition to that, I think it's important that we recognise that the budget I'm responsible for is only part of the Welsh language budget. There are portfolios across Government the touch on the Welsh language. If you just think about the fact that last year we spent £30 million in capital funding for building Welsh-medium schools, £15 million on building locations where young children could learn the Welsh language, additional millions went to Llangrannog and Glan-llyn—nobody ever mentions that additional funding that has gone towards the Welsh language. So, I do think that it is important to restate that.
I wanted to look at Welsh for adults in detail. They receive £13 million, and they teach around 12,000 people. I just want to have a look at that in greater detail, because it does take a great deal of the budget. I want to ensure that they spend the money in the right way, and I'm sure that you'd want me to do that. And it's worth, perhaps, just looking at the fact that it's not just them who provide for teaching adults in Welsh. Say Something in Welsh say that they teach 50,000 people. Duolingo says that they have a million people on their books, and they don't receive a penny from the Government. So, I do think it's important that we see this in the wider context. But, of course, the work that Welsh for adults does in the centre is very, very important.
But I haven't made any decision yet with regard to what we're going to do about that, because I do want to have a closer look at what we can do and ensure that it dovetails with our priorities for Cymraeg 2050. But I can be entirely clear with you that funding won't be lost from the portfolio. If funding is moved around, it will be allocated somewhere else within the Welsh language portfolio.
There's no u-turn being made on the Eisteddfod. The situation remains the same as it was in the past, so I don't know where that has come from.
In terms of the coleg Cymraeg, there are apprenticeships, as I said—around 12 per cent of people do an element of their work in the apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh, and it's important that we increase the opportunities for people to do that so that they study more of their course through the medium of Welsh in future.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, I think, to state the obvious, really, there are particular challenges in different parts of Wales in terms of promoting and growing the Welsh language. In Newport, there was, for a long time, a historical nonsense around in terms of Monmouthshire not being part of Wales or England but being in some strange hybrid position. Thankfully, things have moved on since those days, and I think there's a much stronger sense of Welsh identity in Newport now. And, indeed, many people very much lament what they see as the opportunities they should have had but didn't have to learn Welsh and be able to use the Welsh language. Thankfully for younger people now, things are so much better through the growth of Welsh-medium education. And there are other positive aspects as well, even quite basic, simple things such as bilingual signage, bilingual announcements, and, indeed, some adult groups now meeting in cafes and other places where you hear Welsh spoken in the community. But it is still fairly limited, I think, it's fair to say.
So, I'd be interested just to hear how Welsh Government might continue that progress, further strengthening the language in not just Newport but similar areas across Wales. As I say, they do obviously present particular challenges, given the low base level of the language. It would be great to hear Welsh spoken more commonly, more often in the community in Newport, and I think those limited adult groups show that there's probably a need for greater support to promote social use of the language. Lots of those young people coming out of Welsh-medium education are not using the language in the streets, in the community in Newport, and I'd be interested in your ideas as to how that community use might be developed, promoted and strengthened.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I am going to reply in Welsh, because I'm aware that your Welsh is excellent, John—I'm sure that you don't need the headset, but we'll see—just to say that I'm very happy with the enthusiasm that there is in the Newport area and beyond in terms of the Welsh language, and it's wonderful to see that there'll be a new school in that area. The schools that are already there are full to the brim already, so there are opportunities for people to ensure that there are sufficient numbers of people speaking the language. And the next step is to ensure that they do speak Welsh outside of the school. There are two aims here. There's one to increase the number of people who can speak Welsh and then the second is to ensure that they do use the Welsh language. We need to double the number of people who use the Welsh language and we need to ensure that there are social opportunities available. That's why we hold events such as Dydd Miwsig Cymru—Welsh Language Music Day. I'm sure that there are events on that day in the Newport area, and it would be wonderful if you could let people know about those opportunities.
There are also opportunities for learners to come together through things such as the Siarad project, which is an additional project that we have launched with the national centre. So, I do think that it's important that we look at what these opportunities are to use the Welsh language once we've taught people, especially adults, so that they can use the language, so that it's not an artificial language, as some people have perceived it.
One of the things that's important for me is that we raise awareness again in that area. A few weeks ago, I went for a walk to the Llanthony area, which is just on the border with England. There are so many Welsh signs there. You forget that, at one time, the whole area was a Welsh stronghold. We need to raise this awareness again that this is where these people come from.

Dai Lloyd AC: I also thank the Minister for her statement, and welcome its content, and continue to congratulate the Minister on her ambition in this area, while also recognising the innovative work of Alun Davies while he was a Minister. His work was far-reaching and innovative in this particular area, in ensuring that we do aim towards a million Welsh speakers.
As you've already mentioned, we will be regaining ground. When we talk about a million Welsh speakers, there were a million Welsh speakers in Wales some 120 years ago. Also, as you mentioned in your statement, the fact that the Welsh language still survives and prospers is incredible in and of itself and deserves to be celebrated, given our history of oppression. That's only one part of Welsh history but it did happen.
In the face of the reality that minority languages across the world are in retreat and are disappearing from the face of the earth when they live alongside a very strong global language—. But, of course, the Welsh language has managed to turn that corner, and that is reason for celebration because only three languages out of 7,000 languages on this earth have managed to turn that corner to stop the decline. Only three languages have turned that corner, to halt the decline and to make a u-turn and to start growing again. And Welsh is one of those three languages.
So, there is goodwill towards the language, but, of course, goodwill isn't always enough. There's always room for improvement. Now, Neath Port Talbot Council, for example, haven't opened a single Welsh-medium primary school in its history, since the county was established in 1996. This is in a county where there are still naturally Welsh-speaking communities. I applaud what John Griffiths has just said about Newport, and similar situations, but there are naturally Welsh-speaking areas that don't have Welsh-medium schools available, and have never had the opportunity to send their children to local schools. They've had to send them many miles away. That's the reality of the situation in Neath Port Talbot today, and that is a huge disappointment.
The City and County of Swansea have just closed the Felindre Welsh-medium primary school in the Parsel Mawr—the only naturally Welsh-speaking area in Swansea, in the uplands of the Swansea valley. Now, with 600 children in the Welsh-medium primary school in Pontybrenin and another 600 in Lôn Las primary school, and another 400 in Tirdeunaw, which isn't too far away, there was scope for collaboration, even changing catchmentareas, rather than just closing the school down and seeing it lost as a resource for a Welsh-speaking community. And the Welsh Language Commissioner didn't have the powers to prevent the sale of the school site in an auction in London, and that will happen in around a fortnight's time.
Just one other issue before I conclude: linguistic pressures on the Welsh language will naturally emerge in building large, new housing estates. That is a significant and increasing challenge. I'm not going to take you through all of the stories or all of the challenges, but can I just ask what persuasion you as Minister are bringing to bear on the planning departments of local authorities to take seriously the requirement of the Welsh language, and pressures on the Welsh language, and to at least understand that there needs to be consideration of the Welsh language?
And to close, would you agree—

I thought you had finished, Dai, there. Could you ask your final question, please?

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. This is the final question, you'll be pleased to hear: would you agree, Minister, that safeguarding and developing our naturally Welsh-speaking areas is at the heart of the intention of delivering 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you, Dai. May I say that it is important to underline that languages die in the world every other week? I think it important that people can look to us and can learn from us. But I think it is important that we don't always talk about the death of the language and 'We are still here' and so on. We have to change the way we talk about the language. We need to celebrate, we need to look to the future. It's really important that we take positive steps, looking to the future, rather than the past. How are we going to inspire people to come to the language if we don't speak with that kind of positive vocabulary?
I'm sure that you'll be pleased to hear that I'll be having a conversation with Neath council tomorrow about the situation with regard to the Welsh language, but I'll also be visiting ysgol Bro Dur, and that is a new school that has opened in the area. Of course there is room for further discussion, but I do think, in terms of Swansea, they have moved quite far in this area. I know that Felindre has closed, but there were only 14 pupils at that school, and I thought that everyone understood that it made more sense. Moving ysgol Tan-y-lan to a new location means that 420 new places are available. Tirdeunaw and Pontybrenin are new schools. These are all new schools that have opened in Swansea. So, I think we need to give praise where it's due to Swansea for the journey that they have taken in this area.
In terms of the WESPs, we do have plans now for 10 years. Every council has received a target in terms of what they should be achieving over the next 10 years. So, that planning over the longer term is, hopefully, in place.

Finally, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, for accepting my request to ask a few questions. I have two questions on education—schools education first of all. Now, we talk about this target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and it's good to see that everyone is working together towards that target. Everyone welcomes the target. We should be able to reach it because the role of schools is so very important, and there are two whole generations that are going to pass through our schools between now and 2050.
Do you as Minister agree with me that, in my constituency, every child brought up on Anglesey should be given an assurance that he or she will be entirely fluent in Welsh by the time they leave education? Whichever school that child attends, whether it's a school on the island or on the mainland. Because it's truly not fair for any child to go through an education system that doesn't enable them to play their full part in a society that is bilingual.
The second question, on adult education—to echo a point made by Siân Gwenllian. There are 405 learners in Anglesey at the moment receiving Welsh for adults education at the National Centre for Learning Welsh in the north west at Bangor University. They are concerned about the suggestion that you could be considering cutting up to £0.5 million from the budget of the National Centre for Learning Welsh.
It's entirely right, as you say, that you look at how that money is spent, to ensure that it is spent in the best way possible. But cutting some £0.5 million, if you're still considering that, would mean some £80,000 off the budget of the centre in the north west of Wales, which would correspond to around two posts. There's no doubt that that would have a direct impact on the capacity to teach those people across the north west, and those I am most concerned about—if you'll forgive me—those on Anglesey.
In areas such as Anglesey, where there is a great deal of in-migration from people who come to live on the island for entirely understandable reasons, it's crucial that opportunities are provided for them to learn Welsh, to understand the importance of the language in a bilingual community, and that the capacity is in place to provide those learning opportunities for them. So, when will you make a decision in order to, hopefully, give some assurances to the centre on the way forward?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. In terms of education, I think what's important is that we try to persuade parents to send their children to Welsh-medium schools where that's possible. So, that’s why I think what's important is that we start at the beginning with nursery schools. That's why an additional £1 million went into opening additional nursery schools.
Of course, Anglesey has a target, as does Gwynedd, in terms of where they should be reaching in terms of the expansion in the number of people who speak Welsh in their areas. So, this has to be something that we discuss with them, rather than something that we impose on them, or require them to do without us having that conversation. That's why that process is ongoing at the moment. That conversation is being had about where the WESPs should be in the long term. We have 10 years now to ensure that we are in the right place. That 10-year planning is being done, and that conversation is being had.
In terms of the situation with Welsh for adults, I do think that a great deal of funding goes into this. I want to ensure that it is spent in the right way. I also want to ensure that there is an opportunity for learners to use the Welsh language once they've finished their courses. So, if anything, I want to look at whether we have struck the right balance to ensure that there are opportunities outside, once they finished their learning, to ensure that they have an opportunity to use the Welsh language. I haven't made a decision. I will be making a decision over the coming month, so that they do receive that assurance.

Thank you to the Minister for the statement and for answering questions.

5. Statement by the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip: Holocaust Memorial Day

That brings us to our next item, which is a statement by the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip on Holocaust Memorial Day. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day 2020, which this year marked the seventy-fifth anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau. 
The Holocaust is still living memory and we remain hugely grateful to the survivors who travel around the UK sharing their personal experiences of this dark period of history. Yesterday, survivor Dr Martin Stern MBE spoke at the Holocaust Memorial Day event at Cardiff city hall with the First Minister, and at a Welsh Muslim Cultural Foundation event last night, which I also attended with the First Minister. Many Members attended the Holocaust Educational Trust event in the Senedd on 14 January, where survivor Mala Tribich gave her personal account, and Isaac Blake spoke about the experiences of the Roma and Sinti victims of the Holocaust.
The theme for Holocaust Memorial Day 2020 is Stand Together or Safwn Gyda'n Gilydd. The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust has encouraged people to consider what can divide communities. As the trust has stated:
'Now more than ever, we need to stand together with others in our communities in order to stop division and the spread of identity-based hostility in our society.'
The First Minister and I were also honoured to take part in the candle lighting on the eighth night of Hanukkah. We were grateful to Cardiff Reform Synagogue for inviting us to Insole Court in Cardiff to join in with the celebrations. Regrettably, during the festival of Hanukkah, anti-Semitic graffiti was spray painted on a synagogue and several shops in north London. In early January, it was reported that a 13-year-old boy was physically assaulted and subjected to anti-Semitic abuse while travelling on a bus in London. These incidents in the UK have followed a series of anti-Semitic attacks in New York throughout December.
The Welsh Government stands with Jewish communities and against anti-Semitism in Wales and around the world. Following the horrendous attack on the synagogue in Halle, eastern Germany, on 9 October 2019, which resulted in the death of two people, I wrote to rabbis in Wales to remind communities that they have our full support.

Jane Hutt AC: In May 2017, the Welsh Government adopted the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's definition of anti-Semitism in full and without qualification. We've also provided £40,500 of EU transition funding to the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust to undertake work in Wales as part of this year's commemorations.
The funding went towards three elements: the 75 memorial flames project, where community groups across the UK created their own pieces of artwork to remember all those who lost their lives during the Holocaust. Nine of these memorial flames were developed by groups in Wales, including entries from HM Prison Cardiff art group, Merthyr Tydfil central library and the Association of Voluntary Organisations in Wrexham. The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust is planning to bring an exhibition of all of the 75 memorial flames to Cardiff in February, but you can see examples of these memorial flames here in the Senedd until 29 January; the Stand Together website, which generates the name of an individual killed in the Holocaust and encourages website users to share details of this individual on social media to help raise awareness of the individual stories behind the harrowing genocide; and finally, the employment of a support worker to encourage activity in Wales around Holocaust Memorial Day 2020.
It is vital that children and young people understand the reasons behind the Holocaust and the consequences of dehumanising sections of society. The Welsh Government gives £119,000 to the Holocaust Educational Trust to deliver the Lessons from Auschwitz project in Wales. The programme is open to 16 to 18-year-old students in post-16 education, and gives learners the opportunity to hear the testimony of a Holocaust survivor and also take part in a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau. Students then become Holocaust Educational Trust ambassadors in their own communities, and use their experiences to spread awareness and challenge racism and prejudice.
Further to our work to combat anti-Semitism and commemorate the Holocaust, we have bolstered our existing programmes that prevent hate, promote inclusion of diverse communities, and improve support for victims. We have expanded our support for the national hate crime report and support centre, operated on our behalf by Victim Support Cymru. The centre now has increased capacity to raise awareness of hate crime, develop partnerships with community support organisations, and ensure all victims of hate crime can be offered support.
We've recently developed the hate crime minority communities grant, which is funding eight third-sector organisations to raise awareness of hate crime and how to report it, seek to promote understanding of diversity in communities, and trial innovative approaches to tackling hate crime and support victims. The Hate Crime in Schools project will deliver critical thinking skills training for children in approximately 100 schools across Wales, equipping our young people with the skills to identify hate and misinformation, to enable them to avoid becoming perpetrators in future and challenge negative behaviour where it occurs.
Our equality and inclusion programme supports minority communities to have their voices heard and to challenge inequalities. This activity includes groups who have been affected by persecution and genocide, such as Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, refugees and asylum seekers, and LGBT groups. Later this year, we will launch an anti-hate-crime campaign to try to turn the corner in the spread of divisive rhetoric. We are involving stakeholders to make the campaign as effective as possible.
Tragically, other genocides have followed the Holocaust. The Holocaust Memorial Day Trust encourages remembrance of all people killed in genocides, such as Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur. This year is also the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre, which will be marked in July at an event at the Senedd.
We have a duty to carry the memory of those who lost their lives during the Holocaust, and remember victims of all backgrounds: Jewish people, Roma people, disabled people, LGBT people, and many other groups who faced unimaginable persecution during this period, and ultimately lost their lives because hate and prejudice had become acceptable. By marking these days of remembrance, we can ensure that these horrendous crimes against humanity are never forgotten and we move the world to a situation where it is never again repeated.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, you conclude, as you've just concluded, by saying,
'By marking these days of remembrance we can ensure that these horrendous crimes against humanity are never forgotten and we move the world to a situation where it is never again repeated.'
And I fully, 100 per cent, share your sentiments there. Unfortunately, marking the days of remembrance alone won't ensure that, and we all know when we turn on the television at night and watch the news or documentaries, we see peoples' populations being persecuted across the globe because they're perceived to be different to the Government in power or the dominant belief system or religion in the area they live.
So, how do you believe we can more forcefully—at least at a Wales and UK level—lead global understanding and action on this agenda that goes beyond those critical remembrance and commemoration events on specific dates each year and, hopefully, becomes more cultural? Those who lived through the second world war; those who grew up during those years have lived with that memory, but now we have generations, as you know, for whom this appears to be ancient history.
Last Friday, I spoke at the Holocaust Memorial Day event in Wrexham. It was great to see so many people there, particularly young people—young people from the local colleges and some from local schools, who did want to understand, to engage and to ensure that these dreadful things never happen again. As you have indicated, we were commemorating 75 years since the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau as well as the twenty-fifth anniversary of the genocide in Bosnia. It's also, in April, the seventy-fifth anniversary of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp by British forces. And this year, we've also got the twentieth anniversary of the adoption of the Stockholm declaration, which established what's now known as the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, and the fifteenth anniversary of the adoption of 27 January as the International Holocaust Remembrance Day by the UN General Assembly.
I, like you, attended the event in the Senedd two weeks ago with Mala Tribich and Isaac Blake. How do you feel or respond to the e-mail I've received and I suspect many other Members have today, from the Israel Britain Alliance, which reports a significant rise in the number of antisemitic incidents in the UK, which they say—and I quote—that, sadly, no part of our country, by which they mean the UK, has been immune to the world's oldest hatred?
You say—and we add the Welsh Conservatives to this, and I know everybody in this Chamber—we stand with Jewish communities against antisemitism in Wales and around the world. You talk about it being vital that children and young people understand the reasons and you referred to a programme involving 16 to 18-year-old students. In fact, my children attended Castell Alun High School in Flintshire, and most of them benefited from a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau with their school, and the impression made on them was profound, providing a vital lesson that will remain with them all their lives. They happen to be one of those schools that have recognised how important it is that this is given attention, but there are many others, perhaps, that don't. How can we ensure that this becomes embedded on a more mainstream basis, not just in those schools that are at the forefront of this sort of issue, but those that, perhaps, need to be helped further along the way?
I visited, with Assembly colleagues in 2017, the Yad Vashem World Holocaust Remembrance Centre, and in the hall of names, we saw engraved on the mosaic floor the names of the 22 most infamous Nazi murder sites, and buried beneath these, we understood and learned, are the ashes of the victims. And as Churchill said, the further back you can look, the further forward you are likely to see because the Nazis understood that it's far easier to unite people against rather than for something and they turned against the minorities within.
German authorities also targeted, as you know, other groups because of their perceived difference—their racial and biological so-called inferiority,including children—Roma and Sinti Gypsies, disabled Germans, LGBT people, and certain Slavic peoples, particularly Poles and Russians. No wartime document produced by the Nazis spells out how many people were actually killed, but the US Holocaust Memorial Museum estimates 6 million and 11 million others, taking that to 17 million, including—conservatively estimated—0.5 million European Roma and Sinti Gypsies. In fact, the community itself identifies as many as 1.5 million.
Again, how would you respond to the e-mail I've received today from Gypsy/Travellers I know living near Conwy, who say, 'We love Jews as God loves them, but we watch the tv, we don't see anything about the Gypsy people exterminated by the Nazis and their allies. Please, people, remember this. Please remember 26 November 1935, when the Nuremburg laws were updated to include the detention of Gypsy people, who were made enemies of the state'? And, of course, they talk about genocide; they call it—let's get this right—the Porajmos, or the genocide. And they said that, 'Just small of bits of persecution, small bits of prejudice left unchallenged can ignite destruction. We pray for our Jewish friends and distant cousins that it never happens again.' And, of course, in 1939, we saw the beginning of the killing of disabled adults and children—Germans experimentally gassed in killing centres in Brandenburg, and thousands of disabled patients killed in gas chambers of shower rooms, creating the model that was then rolled out in the Nazi extermination and concentration camps, such as Auschwitz-Birkenau. Again, conservatively estimated, 0.25 million disabled people, many of those children—Down's syndrome, cerebral palsy and many others—killed in that horrible way.
And, actually, there isn't much—. I don't think you really have to answer; I think we're coming from the same place on this. At the core of all that is how we move from this being an annual event or something that we periodically talk about and embed this across our society and lead globally in so doing, so that future generations don't make the same mistakes that generations today are still making and generations of the past did themselves. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, and thank you for all of the points, the questions, that you've made this afternoon. Again, we must repeat: the Holocaust must never be forgotten, and it cannot be just on Holocaust Memorial Day. It's important that this permeates our policy and the way in which I respond to your questions hopefully will demonstrate.
Never again to be repeated—that's part of education. That was a very, very strong message from survivor Dr Martin Stern yesterday, that this is about education. And we need to ensure that that is not just through some very excellent projects that we are funding through the Holocaust Educational Trust, but actually taking this further—and we follow on from a very important statement this afternoon by the education Minister—where we look at the curriculum, we look at the purposes. One of the four purposes in our new curriculum in Wales from 2022 is for all children and young people to develop as ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world, knowledgeable about their culture, communities and society, respecting the needs and rights of others as members of a diverse society. Of course, we see that in our schools, and we see the benefits of that, but this is a very strong tenet of the new curriculum.
It is important that we do fund that Holocaust Educational Trust and we encourage more schools to engage. It will be running in February, and we know that young people—and I'm sure that you saw this in the Wrexham event—want to engage, and they become powerful ambassadors and it will change their lives. And we've heard of other programmes that we will look at, I'm sure, later on. But I think that it is about how we then ensure that this is across the curriculum and in all our schools. I think you raise a very important point about Gypsy/Roma/Travellers and I would like to respond to the message you had from your friends in Conwy, from the Gypsies and Travellers, in terms of their experience. Of course, we heard from Issac Blake at the event in the Senedd recently, and if I can then put again on record today that we must remember that the Nazi genocide included a large number of Gypsy and Roma victims and their suffering mustn't be forgotten. It's very clearly part of today's statement and our response across this Chamber, I'm sure. Negative public discourse in relation to these members of our communities—John Griffiths mentioned this earlier on, and I'm glad that they can feed back to us as Assembly Members in terms of these adverse experiences or feelings that they haven't been acknowledged or heard. It's imperative that we do stand together—the message of Holocaust Memorial Day—against such racism and intolerance.
But I think the fact that we are awarding considerable sums of finance—£529,500 to the Travelling Ahead project at TGP Cymru—is important because that's about delivering advice and advocacy support to Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. That's about making a positive impact on people's lives through supporting community members, but also on the aspects of their lives that are very important in terms of accessing equality of opportunity, training, education and influencing decision making. So, that is a very important part of my response today.
But in terms of how we tackle antisemitism, we stand, the Welsh Government, with the Jewish community in Wales and across the world. We consider antisemitic attacks to be an attack on Welsh values of inclusion, freedom and respect. So, that's why working with faith communities is so important to promote those shared values and understanding in Wales. We will work to ensure that Wales continues to be a country where antisemitism and all forms of hate have no place.

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement. It's so important that we use Holocaust Memorial Day to remember those who lost their lives, the Jewish people, the Roma people, disabled people, LGBT people—anyone who didn't fit the twisted Nazi ideal. This date of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau has to be marked every year to remember, as you've said, and to learn from one of the greatest inhumanities ever seen on the face of this earth.
Deputy Minister, I'd echo your words in praising the Holocaust Educational Trust and the crucially important work they do in teaching young people about these horrors and the outreach work they do with survivors. A number of years ago I met Zigi Shipper, a survivor of Auschwitz-Birkenau. His story and his zest for life were, at one and the same time, life-affirming and heartbreaking. Heartbreaking because of how aware we all were in that room of all the stories that couldn't be told because those children didn't survive to live them. Zigi is now 90 years old—I think he's just had his birthday. As survivors of the Holocaust grow older, the time will soon come when no-one is left living who lived through the horrors of that time.
The Holocaust didn't happen overnight. It started slowly with a gradual erosion of rights and a narrative set-up of us versus them—the other. Of course, amongst the horrors there were stories of hope, like Sir Nicholas Winton's kindertransport, a scheme that ensured that children who might otherwise have died in the Holocaust were brought to the UK. The Government of the time could have done more, but thank God that that initiative born out of human kindness and compassion saved the lives that it did.
I'm sure the Deputy Minister will share my concern that the current UK Government recently refused to accept an amendment in Westminster that would have obliged the UK to continue to allow lone children within the EU to apply for legal family reunion here. I accept that this is not directly to do with the Holocaust. I would not draw a comparison and say that that is the same as the Holocaust, but we have never regretted moments of kindness in our past, let's continue this proud tradition. That's all I'm saying with that point.
So, on that, could I ask what assessment would the Welsh Government make of the impact of thekindertransport scheme in Wales still today? And what conversations is the Welsh Government having with the UK Government to plead with them to ensure that in the future migrant children will be allowed to seek refuge here?
Deputy Minister, moreover, the statement mentions a number of projects in schools aimed at tackling prejudice, which I welcome. But would the Welsh Government reflect on calls for teaching about the Holocaust to be made a compulsory element of the new curriculum? It's something that's come up a few times in the Chamber today. There's a Primo Levi poem that expresses why we should do this far more eloquently than I could. He says:
'Meditate that this came about: / I commend these words to you. / Carve them in your hearts / …Repeat them to your children, / Or may your house fall apart, / … May your children turn their faces from you.'
It's relevant, I think, to note that Primo Levi died in 1987 and the coroner ruled his death as a suicide. His biographers attribute the depression that gripped him later in life to the traumatic memories of his experiences. The Nobel laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel said at the time:
'Primo Levi died at Auschwitz forty years later.'
Events like the Holocaust aren't just frozen in time. Their catastrophic effects linger and ripple down the generations. Deputy Minister, do you agree that we owe it to the children of the Holocaust, the Primo Levis, the Zigi Shippers of this world, and to future generations, to ensure that these events are never allowed to fade into the mist of time, that they can never be allowed to become remote, a horror story that happened to a different people in another time, when things were different?
Hugo Rifkind has a blog he published in 2015 where he points out that
'It happened here, in Europe. In lands of cellos, and neckties, and bicycles. '
It was not remote then, it is not remote from us now. We owe it to them, surely, to avoid that old adage, that terrible prospect, that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Delyth Jewell. I'm pleased you focused on lessons learnt and how that can influence, going back to Mark Isherwood's point, the whole of our working, the whole of our policy making and delivery. And particularly, I think, it was good that we had a statement on the new curriculum this afternoon, to see that there are opportunities, because I know that all the schools that do engage, and most schools—I think there'll be very few schools that won't now engage in national Holocaust Memorial Day—will have learnt and will have taken this forward, and it will become not just an annual feature, but a feature of the curriculum, of their living and learning, to create that society that we know is right for their opportunity, their values and their ethics.
I think it's very important to see, in terms of the opportunities with the flames that you'll see around the country, and I hope you will see them in the Senedd today, that, actually, there's also a Lessons from Auschwitz course being run by the Holocaust Educational Trust, and we're enabling schools and teachers to benefit from that. And one of the schools that actually did benefit from our funding this year was Woodlands High School in Cardiff, which also was able to produce and be recognised for the sharing of the flame.
It was interesting last night hearing from Dr Martin Stern about the gradual build-up of the Nazi movement and the influence of Adolf Hitler in Germany—Germany, his country that he loved and had to leave. He actually survived the Holocaust as a very young boy, and we've all heard of the stories over the last two days, but he's determined that his story should be shared with the youngest of children in our society.
I think importantly yesterday, also, the First Minister said:
'Today is a painful day and I thank Dr Stern for using his touching story to remind us all about the power of tolerance…We must stand together. We must celebrate our differences. And we must believe there is more that unites us than drives us apart. It's the only way to make sure these sorry events stay exactly where they belong—in the history books.'
Julie Morgan, the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, and I did write to the Home Secretary about the importance of ensuring that we have got an opportunity to support family reunification for child refugees. And, in fact, I acknowledged Lord Alf Dubs, when we had our event on the fourteenth, when we were painting messages on stones, and I think many people had a message to thank him for what he's done for child refugees since he was a child refugee. And I know that we will be writing to find out how the UK Government is proposing to support family reunification for child refugees, which is what they have said. So, we will be taking that up following our statement last week.
Finally, I would have to say that this is an opportunity for us in this Assembly to unite across the Chamber, to stand, making sure that we respond to the standing together message of the national Holocaust movement, and the importance of Holocaust Memorial Day.

David J Rowlands AC: Whilst I accept that protocol dictates I question the Deputy Minister on her statement today, I feel the content and the completeness of the statement leaves little to criticise or add to. I also feel that making some political gain out of the occasion or the actions outlined in the statement would be totally inappropriate.
I would therefore like to simply say that, having attended the Holocaust Educational Trust event in the Senedd on the fourteenth of this month, I was completely and utterly moved by the courage of Mala Tribich in giving her testimony, especially when she described the moment she and her young cousin entered the infamous camp of Belsen. To feel I was in the presence of someone whose eyes had actually gazed on the horrors of that camp brought home to me as nothing had previously the sheer brutality of those times. We must never forget that these appalling crimes were carried out by a supposedly civilised nation. The events that occurred in Cambodia, Rwanda and Darfur, and much closer to home in Bosnia, especially at Srebrenica, remind us of the constant potential for man's inhumanity to man.
Just one point I wish to raise with regard to this report, Deputy Minister, and that is many were murdered by the Nazis simply because they were disabled. I know that Mark has raised this point as well. It should be noted here that most hate crime is aimed at those who are disabled in some way. If we are to teach people about intolerance to their fellow beings, this aspect of being victimised because you are different should also be emphasised in any project aimed at eliminating prejudice.

Jane Hutt AC: I thank David Rowlands very much for that contribution this afternoon. I think this does demonstrate that we can come together in this Chamber and I hope that this will also—. In terms of your final comments in terms of tackling hate crime, we've talked about this earlier on—Mark Isherwood raised the issue of hate crime that disabled people face—but we know that race hate crime is also an important feature of those statistics, and we have got to work together to face this and to overcome it. So, I hope we will have a positive response to the hate crime debate that I shall be leading in Government time in due course.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The BBC was at its best last night with a really powerful dramatisation of the story of The Windermere Children and the work of Leonard Montefiore in fighting bureaucracy to get these children to come from war-torn liberated concentration camps. It also captured, if you like, the bigotry that still existed at that time in this country, and still exists today. It was a no-holds-barred dramatisation of the story of those young people. Then, it went on subsequently, later, to interview those children as they are today in their 80s. And so it was the most extraordinary experience to be able to really understand exactly what they'd been through.
So, I think that we have to remember that there was huge resistance by the UK Government both to bringing in people in kindertransportbefore the war, and so many of those children died in the concentration camps, but also to bringing in any of these children at all. It was only down to the persistence of this visionary man that he managed to negotiate with both the UK Government and with the Red Cross to persuade them to allow these people to come to the Lake District to have some sort of rehabilitation before they had to reintegrate with normal life.
It was great to see Mala Tribich, who was undoubtedly the star of the show at our event here in the Senedd on 14 January, but she was also the central character in Westminster Central Hall, because it was her story that was mentioned by the Prime Minister; it was her who briefed him on what he had to say. I think one of the things that was most heartening about the event yesterday in City Hall was to hear Dr Martin Stern being so clear that it isn't about just this one historic event, but all the 50 other Holocausts that have happened since then; all the genocides that have happened since then. I just wanted to also say that I think the stand together initiative of this year's Holocaust memorial is really important, because it has started to tell the story of all the other people who were murdered by the Nazis so that—. On my chair was the name of somebody called Ewald Förster who was murdered by the Nazis for being a gay person, and also Sophie Blaschke, murdered by the Nazis for being a disabled person.
But equally, I wanted to come back to what was mentioned by Mark Isherwood, which was also the destruction and murder of the Roma and Sinti, which was spoken about by Isaac Blake. He embraced the memorial stone project that was also brought to the Senedd two weeks ago, and organised for schools to take part in that creative project so that they could be part of the permanent memorial in Westminster. He told me yesterday that several schools had turned down the opportunity to allow their pupils to make a memorial stone on the grounds that they didn't have any Gypsies or Travellers amongst their pupils, as if this was something that only affected certain types of people, which is quite extraordinary.
But I just wanted to come back to the way in which we have neglected, up until now, the horror that was suffered by Roma and Sinti by the Nazis. Because it's worth noting that the Jewish people were given reparations by Germany for their Holocaust crimes, but at Nuremberg, nobody ever discussed any reparations for the Roma and Sinti community or anybody else, as far as I'm aware. And I think one of the most important things that I learnt from the event here at the Senedd was that, whilst we know—and I think everybody in this Chamber knows that 6 million Jews were murdered by the Nazis—we do not know how many Roma and Sinti were murdered by the Nazis, even though they were absolutely religious note takers of everything they did. We know that there was a large number, but we have no idea how many. Most estimates put it between 220,000 and 500,000, but some scholars put it as high as 1.5 million. And I just wondered whether there was anything that the Welsh Government could do to support the research required to tie down exactly how many Roma and Sinti were murdered by the Nazis because I think it's an important part of recording the pain and suffering that was suffered by people who mainly had no literacy, and therefore didn't record things in the way that most Jewish people did. So, I just wondered whether there was anything that could be done to rectify that, to help support some further research into trying to have a much more granular idea of just how many other people, other than Jews, were murdered by the Nazis.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and thank you for drawing attention to the many other broadcasts and events that took place yesterday. I think you would be interested to know that Dr Martin Stern is making visits all week—he's 80 and he walked over to the Friends Meeting House last night and he gave a speech for an hour without a note. He was remarkable. Today he's speaking to 280 pupilsfrom year 9 at Fitzalan High School; he's going to Eastern High School, he's speaking to students, he's going to meet the school council; he's speaking to 130 sixth-formers and staff from Cardiff and central south Wales; he's going to Swansea; he's going all over Wales in south Wales—all of your constituencies, you will find that he's going to be there. He's been to north Wales, he tells me, several times. But it is quite remarkable, the influence of survivors. He's a retired doctor, and he just says, 'This is what I do', and he spoke last night about the fact that he could not speak about it, he could not do this, until he had retired. And many other survivors have been in this place, and I thank you for mentioning Mala Tribich and what she did.
Now, I just want to finally say, in response to your two points, yes, it's important that Stand Together actually reflects what we're trying to do in terms of strengthening equality and inclusion and human rights in Wales, and we must recognise that in terms of LGBT people and what we're doing to tackle hate crime, exclusion and discrimination. And I will follow up with Issac Blake. We fund, support, as I've said, organisations that support Gypsies and Travellers, but also the Romani arts community that Issac supports. Because he influences schools across Wales, from Newport, from Pill, to Carmarthen, to Pembrokeshire, and the children, who aren't—obviously, these are not all diverse schools, but they are schools that are learning about this, and we will look at how we can extend our knowledge, as that will be important for the students and the children, who will benefit.

I want to be able to call two further contributions, so if contributors can be reasonably succinct, and the Minister in responding as well. Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, for this opportunity. Deputy Minister, can I say 'thank you' for your earlier answers, and for the contributions today? You were right: I did go and visit Auschwitz-Birkenau this time last week. I don't propose to talk about that in particular, except from one particular angle, which we've touched on a little bit already, and that is the necessity for our younger people to go there. It's 75 years since the liberation, as we know. Time has passed. The generations before the young people we have today—my generation, at least, born less than 20 years after the second world war—weren't told about the horrors of the Holocaust, and, in fact, as we heard from Norma Glass, a member of the Jewish community in Swansea, who was at the Pentrehafod event earlier this week—this is an older lady—she wasn't told about the events either, because people couldn't bring themselves to talk about it. That's why I too am pleased with the work of the Holocaust Educational Trust, and, of course, the willingness of survivors to talk to us.
On the back of my exhortation to get as many young people to go to Auschwitz as soon as possible, I think we have to recognise that, because time has passed, we now have stories coming forward of individuals—and I stress it is individuals—thinking it's entirely appropriate, after having seen some of the awful exhibits, and having seen the ovens where people like them burned people like them, that they can stand in front of the death wall, where people like them were shot by people like them, taking selfies and making—. Ridiculous, fun-filled activities, and I wonder: do they see themselves as antisemitic when they're doing that? Because that's what I wanted to ask you about. Part of this Stand Together exhortation is about action, rather than just words, and as part of the visit I did last week—. Obviously, we had a conference alongside it, hosted by the European Jewish Association, which is the biggest association of Jewish organisations across Europe, within the EU and beyond it, and, at the conference, we heard from Ministers of state from across all the European countries that I can think of, and we were all invited to consider further legislation in our countries—and this where action rather than just words comes into what I'm about to say—to combat antisemitism.
We don't have the competence for all these, and I'll go through them as quickly as possible, but the first one was to ask whether states were prepared to penalise organisations or individuals who engage in antisemitic stereotyping in the public domain. It was suggested to us that the national education bodies of all our countries appoint a special representative mandated to liaise with designated Jewish community representatives with expertise in the field of education to ensure that teaching resources are accurate, that the Holocaust is seen as the bigger picture of the Jewish nation and theJewish story, and the contribution of Jews to public life can be adequately recognised—particularly important in Wales, where the Jewish population is small, and, as Jenny alluded to, education research on the Holocaust more widely, as far as I can tell, anyway, is not as developed as it is in Scotland and England. I recommend Dr Andy Pearce's paper on the Holocaust and the national curriculum of England after 25 years. Neither of these proposals prevents similar steps being taken to combat other type of racial or religious discrimination, of course.
Then, thirdly, they called for an outright ban on the trade of Nazi memorabilia for personal profit or macabre interest, excluding legitimate historians and institutions, of course. It was a highlight of the event for me to meet Abdallah Chatila, the Lebanese Christian who spent €600,000 of his own money to take a number of Hitler's personal possessions off the market, and they're now on their way to Yad Vashem. We don't have the competence for all of this, but if standing together does mean action rather than words, I wonder if you would be prepared to make representations to the UK Government—I'm sorry the Dubs amendment has come up in this context; I don't think that was appropriate—but also think about what we can do here with the powers that we do have, whether that's through policy or through legislation. Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Suzy Davies, and thank you for sharing with us what you gained and learned from your visit not only to Auschwitz-Birkenaubut also to the conference for the European Jewish Association. I'd like you—you've given us some of the recommendations; I'd like you to write to me and send them to me. But as you say, you've come back from that conference, immediately got a question in to me, which was very good, this afternoon, and I've welcomed that in my oral questions.
But it is about action rather than words. I also recognise that there are ways in which we are working together across the whole of Wales. You mentioned Norma Glass, for example; I met with her and the First Minister in the summer, and last Saturday attended the starting of the opening of the BAME cultural and digital hub in Swansea at the Grand Theatre, where of course there were Jewish, Muslim—all faiths, all communities there represented.
But just very quickly, just to say in terms of what Welsh Government is already doing to deliver our commitment to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism—we've arranged training on antisemitism for Welsh Government officials, and we've also offered that to external stakeholders, including a focus on the IHRA definition of antisemitism. We've organised Holocaust survivors with Welsh connections to give talks, we're working with the Holocaust Educational Trust, and, of course, I've talked about our clear co-ordinated action in terms of tackling hate crime. But also, just to say that we have the hate crime criminal justice board, which has had a full discussion on antisemitic hate crime, and working with Victim Support Cymru in terms of ensuring we have a recording system to flag antisemitic hate crimes and incidents. So, I think it would be useful for me to respond to your letter to highlight what already we are seeking to do.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Now more than ever we should remind ourselves that, if left unopposed, all forms of hatred and dehumanising the Other will undermine democratic values and human rights, and will feed violent extremism. We cannot afford to live in societies where people fear for their safety and suffer discrimination and a denial of rights on a daily basis, for no other reason than their identity and convictions. State authorities, public personalities, the media and all of us must condemn and confront antisemitic, xenophobic acts and other attempts to vilify the Other. Political leaders have the duty to prevent intolerance and hate speech from entering mainstream politics, to help current and future generations understand what happens when prejudice and hatred are allowed to thrive. We must become more vocal, visible and effective against those who instil hate.
Remembrance days are important to pause and reflect, but the fight against hate is a challenge that must be met every day, not once a year. As the number of Holocaust survivors dwindles, we must take up their torch and help keep their memory alive. Their tragic destiny must remain visible and guide us towards a more just and inclusive society, free from hate. Does the Deputy Minister agree with this statement released this week to mark the Holocaust commemorations by the Council of Europe, and does she agree that this is a timely reminder of how we are, regardless of formal ties or not, ultimately stronger together as partners and friends in Europe, united by values of tolerance and understanding, and in our remembering the painful lessons of the recent past, to prevent our repeating of them in the future?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Huw Irranca-Davies, and I thank you for reading out that statement from the Council of Europe. I hope in this week we can reflect on that statement. Clearly, from the contributions that have been made this afternoon, there is a strong commitment to that statement. We have got to keep that at the heart of what we do in terms of Government and scrutiny, as well as in our policy making.
And I think we must just conclude by saying that, as you and others have said, the stand-together message is very important for today. It says:
'stand together with others in our communities in order to stop division and the spread of identity-based hostility in our society.'
That's what the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust has encouraged us to do:safwn gyda'n gilydd. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

6. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government: Supporting our Town Centres

The next item is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government: supporting our town centres. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Llywydd.I'm very pleased to speak to you today about Welsh town centres and to speak about providing more support for our towns. I do want to transform Welsh towns.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Llywydd, I'm happy to announce a further package of support for town centres worth nearly £90 million as part of our transforming towns agenda. This builds on the projected £800 million investment in our towns as a result of our regeneration programmes since 2014. The transforming towns package includes support for enforcement around empty and derelict properties in our town centres, a new green infrastructure fund and a town-centre-first approach to new developments.
These measures will contribute significantly to the health of our town centres. We all agree here that towns are incredibly important to Wales, and the vast majority of us will have a natural affinity to at least one town—places that have shaped us, places that are integrally linked to friends and family, places that are so much more than just a collection of buildings. Towns across the country have unique assets, a proud heritage and inspiring histories.
But I want our towns to have great futures as well as great pasts, and some are facing challenges. The retail sector has changed as the way we shop, work and live has changed. The role of towns is changing and towns need to repurpose themselves to adapt. That's why we've been investing in bringing life to town centres through housing, office and business start-up space, and leisure and public services. We have a number of regeneration funds that are targeted at town centres but have not been explicitly badged as such. From now on, our investments will be an integral part of our transforming towns agenda and I want to clarify and simplify the processes around funds.
The transforming towns package includes extending our capital grant funding programme for a further year to March 2022. Welsh Government investment of £36 million will enable the delivery of additional projects worth nearly £58 million. I am also providing an additional £10 million loan funding to bring empty and under-utilised buildings in town centres back into use. And I have established a £5 million green infrastructure and biodiversity fund for greening projects, which will bring environmental benefits as well as helping making town centres more attractive places to visit.
Coastal towns like Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Cardigan and Barry already benefit from our existing programmes, and will continue to do so. I have, though, additionally earmarked funding to specifically support projects in coastal town areas. This £2 million funding will deliver projects worth around £3 million and includes an element of revenue as well as capital funding.
More generally, I'm also providing £0.5 million revenue funding to enable local authorities to develop master plans, projects and provisions for town centres, including digital development and enhancing community and stakeholder engagement. Community and stakeholder engagement is key to the vitality of a town. I want to support communities and stakeholders to take ownership of their townsand to shape their future. And I intend today to take to towns across the country to hear what people have to say and how they want to shape, to transform, their own towns and the places where they live and work. We've also put £539,000 into supporting the development of 22 business improvement districts.
As part of giving communities and businesses the tools to do the job, with the Carnegie Trust, we funded the creation of the understanding Welsh places data tool. We're now funding further development of the tool, which assists users to better understand the places where they live and work, in order to make positive change.
Whilst I am keen to empower and challenge communities to take ownership and drive change from the grass roots, I recognise that Government has a key, strategic role. I want to use all the levers at our disposal to make a real and lasting difference to our town centres. That's why this Government, together with our partners in the Welsh Local Government Association, has adopted a town-centre-first principle. This will mean that town-centre locations will be the first consideration for any new developments we are part of. The principle will inform our future estates strategy and we will strongly support and encourage our partners to do likewise.
Whether it's a small rural town or a large urban one, whether it's my constituency office in the heart of Flint town centre, or Transport for Wales's headquarters in Pontypridd, location decisions can provide a boost to a town. I recently visited the new Conwy County Borough Council headquarters at Colwyn Bay and saw for myself the positive effect on the town centre—increased footfall, decreased vacancies and a marked improvement in business performance and confidence. Town-centre locations also bring major environmental benefits, such as reducing single-use car journeys, preservation of green field sites, opportunities to introduce green infrastructure, and more co-location of public agencies.
One of the key challenges in transforming our towns is tackling empty and derelict properties or land—the properties that have blighted too many of our high streets for too long. It's time to call time on this. I'm providing local authorities with access to expertise and a £13.6 million fighting fund to enable them become a source of constant nuisance to those owners who don't engage or only do the bare minimum. With our local authority partners, we have prioritised 66 properties across Wales for action. So, my message to owners of empty properties in town centres is: work with us and we will help to bring your empty property back into use. But, if you refuse to co-operate, we will not be afraid to take firm and final action.
This Welsh Government is serious about refocusing and reinvigorating our approach and support for town centres, and these measures will make a significant contribution. In addition, my officials are exploring the feasibility of a fund aimed at unlocking strategic stalled sites in Wales that are likely to yield significant numbers of housing. This links to recommendations within the affordable housing review and, reflecting our town-centre focus, will prioritise sites that would directly benefit town centres.
Llywydd, this package is simply the start of transforming towns and definitely not the end. Together, we can and will make sure that towns across the country not only survive but thrive. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood AC: You begin your statement with the announcement, which, of course, we have been made publicly aware of in advance through the media, of a further package of support for town centres worth nearly £90 million as part of your transforming towns agenda. What is the timescale that that £90 million applies to? Is it one year, or is it projected into the next Senedd term? Having led a debate three weeks ago here, calling on the Welsh Government to establish a seaside town and market town fund to support regeneration in communities across Wales, and announcing that's exactly what the Welsh Conservatives would do, I could say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, although I suspect you'll of course flatly deny that this had anything to do with it. However, our proposals included the statement that this will enable communities to decide how the fund is to be invested within their local area—in other words, not just public bodies and businesses.
As the Bevan Foundation has said, if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don't work, and we need to therefore produce programmes with communities themselves. This morning, you issued your town-centre-first principle Wales, and this concluded with the statement that proportionate and best value decision making should include consideration of the importance of supporting town centres in line with the requirements of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. And, of course, the five ways of working for public bodies within that Act include collaboration, working with others, including third sector bodies and communities,to help achieve goals that have been decided together, and involving the people that services or activities are going to benefit or affect from as early a stage as possible. How will your proposals, therefore, address that, because the statements I've seen so far haven't specifically referred to this, which should be clearly at the core, not only because of legislation, but also because, if you are going to invest money, this is the best way to get the outcomes that we all want to see?
You refer to 22 business improvement districts and state that:
'Community and stakeholder engagement is key to the vitality of a town.'
When I looked up business improvement districts, the Welsh Government website says currently there are only 24 of these in existence or being developed, that support ends in March this year and that only funding up to £30,000 is available for each district. So, I wonder if you can expand—is that still the case or are the business improvement districts you're referring to here something that will continue beyond March and potentially enable BIDs to go beyond the £30,000 referred to.
You refer to the Carnegie Trust working with you to create the understanding Welsh places data tool, and, of course, as the Carnegie Trust themselves state, having robust data is a fundamental requirement for supporting regeneration, and therefore, of course, we embrace this. But what consideration have you also given to the extensive work carried out by Carnegie Trust on transforming towns and on the enabling state? They state in their many reports, including 'Turnaround Towns', that:
'The future of our towns is about more than just the high street, it is also about residents' access to levers of change and their ability to influence local decisions.'
And they state that the enabling state approach is about
'moving us from the state as a provider of welfare towards a more enabling style of governance. Set within a shift in the relationships between citizens, community and the state',
suggesting that
'government, alongside driving the performance of public services, should enable communities to do what they do best',
where communities
'are best-placed to bring a wealth of local knowledge and collective energy to the decisions that affect them.'
Two more questions. You will be aware that the UK Government has announced £3.6 billion for its town fund to support towns across England to build prosperous futures, give communities a greater say in their future post Brexit, targeted at places that have not shared in the proceeds of growth in the same way as more prosperous parts of the country. So, how much, if at all—and I don't know if this is Barnettised money—of that £3.6 billion will find its way or has found its way to Wales? If it is coming to Wales now or in the future—and I appreciate this goes beyond 2021—will the Welsh Government be fully allocating that to transforming towns in Wales or not?
And, finally, in response to your transforming towns media coverage, the Federation of Small Businesses Wales, which supports businesses, said it was time to start rethinking what a high street looks like. So, how do you respond to their research identifying the key megatrends affecting towns in Wales and the suggestions they made, including publishing town strategies in every town, ensuring the ownership is local and businesses and the voluntary and public sectors are engaged; considering establishing a property register where interventions often fail with absent or unidentifiable landlords, to build a basis for engagement; and rethinking the role of business rates in towns, replicating the recently announced English relief for high street businesses, which they say will be a great start, but, in the longer term, the impact of rates in our towns will need better consideration? Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Hannah Blythyn AC: If I first take the question around the package of the £90 million funding and the timescales of that, well, it has to be broken down, because the £90 million encapsulates quite a few different strands, the bulk of which is the targeted regeneration investment fund, an extension until 2022 of £57.6 million, which will be for local authorities to identify projects in priority towns.It also includes the £5 million green infrastructure fund, and an additional £10 million for the town-centre loans. But it may be better if I provide that breakdown in writing to Members, to be able to analyse that further and to explain the timescales around that for you to disseminate in your constituencies and communities as well.FootnoteLink
The Member would expect me to say this, and I hate to disappoint, but you said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I can assure you that we probably already had this announcement in the pipeline when we did have that debate a few weeks ago. But I'm very pleased where you can find areas of consensus, because we all agree that our towns are so important to us, and to support them as well. I do not disagree in any respect—and I said it in my statement—that it's incredibly important, as we move forward with this regeneration work, and in particular the focus on town centres, that communities are involved with that. Because you can invest money in a town, but to actually make it work in the long term, it has to have that buy-in of stakeholders, whether they be businesses, whether they be members of community groups. So, I'm keen to look at further ways that we can facilitate that, moving forward, and should any Members in this Chamber have any suggestions then I'd be more than happy to receive them.
One of the things we are doing as part of this package is looking in terms of how we can take forward more of a communications approach with communities, to work with them, to actually talk about the support that we're talking about and get their input, and enable a mechanism for people to be able to flag issues and put forward suggestions. And I'm keen to look at how we can involve town and community councils much more in that as well, because, from my experience, they're often the people at the forefront there in the community, seeing what the challenges are and seeking those solutions.
With respect to the UK Government announcement of the £3.6 billion, none of the additional funding that I've announced this week is a result of Barnett consequentials from the UK Government's towns fund. We've not been made aware of any consequential from that, and I would perhaps urge the Member to perhaps go back to his colleagues in Westminster and perhaps lobby on behalf of Wales to ensure that, if there is any consequential, then we should receive it.

Information further to Plenary

Delyth Jewell AC: I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement. There is a lot to welcome in it. There's a growing realisation that towns have been left behind due to the inaction of Governments here and in Westminster, and there's a realisation as well, I think, that that needs to change because of how important town centres are for businesses, for the health of the local economy, and of course—most importantly, perhaps—for the people who live in them.
We'll all be familiar with the experience of visiting the centres of historic and strategically important towns in Wales and being dismayed at seeing dereliction and shops with their shutters down. But, Deputy Minister, there are seeds of hope in Wales as well, and I think we'd all like to take this opportunity to congratulate Treorchy for winning the prize of the UK's best high street. So, what's Treorchy doing right? There are around 100 shops on the high street, with the vast majority being run independently, and the occupancy rate is a staggering 96 per cent, which is just phenomenal. This is what we should be aiming for all over Wales. So, I'd welcome hearing what the Welsh Government will be doing to learn from their experiences there—not least the fact that, according to the BBC, 60 per cent of the independent shops are run by women, which shows how a locally based economy can bring tangible benefits in economic equality.
Now, another success story in the making is Llanelli, where the local authority has made excellent use of funding streams, including the town-centre loan scheme. So, could the Deputy Minister confirm that this funding will continue to be available for local authorities that are keen to use all the levers at their disposal to turn their town centres around? Now, I'd agree that the £10 million fund for bringing derelict properties back into use is appropriate as a first step to tackling that problem. But the complaint we hear from businesses time and again is that they simply can't make ends meet because of the crippling burden of business rates, which are high in Wales for small and medium-sized businesses, as you'll know. So, while I welcome the tough words that you've said, when you say that you'll empower local authorities to take firm and final action against owners of empty properties that refuse to co-operate, we do need action as well to prevent these properties from becoming derelict and empty in the first place. So, I'd urge you to persuade the economy Minister to look at how the burden of business rates can be lifted as a priority, so that your firm words can be complemented with firm action in that regard as well.
Indeed, lots of the problems that town centres are facing do emanate—as these things are all connected, they will emanate from the economy and transport portfolios: a lack of affordable bus services within and between towns that makes it difficult for public transport users to get around, and unreasonable parking costs, which makes taking a trip in a car undesirable for so many people.
I was slightly surprised to see a reference to local services, like leisure centres, being essential to town centres. Of course I agree with that principle, but campaigners in my region had to fight tooth and nail to prevent the closure of a valued local resource in Pontllanfraith leisure centre. Again, I don't doubt the sincerity of the intent here, but I feel that greater cross-portfolio working would benefit the Government here as well, because cuts to local government inevitably mean cuts to local services, and a one-Government approach would really be welcome to be seen there.
And finally, I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for the note she circulated before the statement about the town-centre-first principle. This is something that Plaid Cymru wholeheartedly supports as a way to maximise footfall within our town centres, and again, I hope that the ambition is met with action. It was mentioned in the note that not all public services and facilities will be suitable for a town centre, so could you please indicate what services and facilities you foresee won't be suitable for town centres? But again, there's a lot to welcome here and I look forward to scrutinising the delivery of the plans with interest.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you. I thank the Member for her contribution. First and foremost, I join you in congratulating Treorchy on its fantastic win and the recognition it well deserves. I wasn't aware of that point you made about 60 per cent of the independent shops being run by women, which is fantastic. Actually, when I think about the towns in my own community, that is very much the case as we move forward now. Clearly, we've got a lot to learn. We talk about the challenges, but I think sometimes we have to have a glass-half-full approach and actually see what we can learn from those towns that are doing well and are perhaps bucking the trend.
So, I think we have to learn more about what's happened in Treorchy and how they got there, and perhaps how they can share that best practice with other towns of a similar size and nature as well. But recognising it's about finding that unique selling point of a town and how you embrace that and use it, rather than trying and be like somewhere else or trying to compete with a neighbouring town, and to perhaps complement that.
You mentioned Llanelli, I think it was a while back, last year, when I managed to go and visit and see some of the work that's been done there to try and repurpose the town centre and perhaps restructure it and bring it together and consolidate it. I certainly saw the seeds of improvement being sown there.
The town-centre loans are set to continue and there's an additional £10 million-worth of funding for that, because I know it has made a difference with local authorities being able to facilitate those loans and bring in private investment. So, that's really to the benefit of some of our communities.
The enforcement fund for derelict properties is actually £13.6 million. We've actually already worked with local authorities on this to look at how they can identify—. They've already identified three buildings. We all know those ones that everybody talks about and everybody moans about. It's making sure now that they've identified the right buildings—the ones that can send that message. You can get one or two and use that as leverage in the future.
In terms of the Minister for finance's role and business rates, this is a discussion that we regularly have, and I'm really pleased that the high street rate relief scheme has been extended recently. I've heard first hand that has made a difference to people. Clearly, as we move forward, there's work ongoing in terms of local taxation as a whole and how we think—. You're right: there's a whole holistic approach to making this work, and transport is key. Because there's no point in us redeveloping our town centres if we can't access them. So, I think, as we move forward, the public transport Bill and elements of that all have to work. I can assure you that this has cross-Government commitment and support for making this work, as we move forward.

Alun Davies AC: Like others this afternoon, Deputy Minister, I would also like to welcome the statement that you've made. I think, across the Chamber, despite many differences, we would all welcome the structured thinking that is now taking place within the Welsh Government about the future of our town centres. This is something that affects not only the economy of individual places, but it also deeply affects people's perceptions of themselves. It's an issue that is at the heart of who we are as communities and who we want to be in the places that we live. I very much welcome this holistic approach that is being taken.
But if I could, I would like to move you a little further, Deputy Minister, to be a little more holistic as well. If I think about the communities that I represent: if you take Ebbw Vale, for example. When I speak to people who are retailers and shop owners there, they will tell me that one of the biggest challenges they face is the lack of decent bus services into the town centre, and the same is said in other parts of my constituency. Now, you are delivering £90 million, which is obviously very welcome, but another department is cutting the bus services grant. I think we do need to see a more linked-up approach across Government, so that the work that you are undertaking in your department is supported by the work being undertaken by your colleagues in other departments and isn't undermined—even though I accept that it is unintentionally so. At the same time, we need to ensure that we have the planning in place that will enable town centres to flourish and not simply to become ghettos, as has happened in many places.
Having said that, I really do welcome very much the new emphasis, as I see it, on the green infrastructure. I think that's one of the really key issues. When you look hard at places you like to be—town centres and community centres that are attractive, that feel comfortable, that people want to spend time in—they are also areas that are physically attractive as well. We need to ensure that we are able to invest both in the physical built environment, but also the green infrastructure, which I think will have a profound impact on people's perceptions of where they are.
I would ask you to go a little further, Minister, in terms of how this is delivered. You said, in both your statement and also in answer to earlier questions, that you wanted to work with other stakeholders and the rest of it. I think that that's all very laudable, and it would be more surprising if you didn't say that. But there is a lack of resource, I believe, in local government and elsewhere that enables this sort of structured development to take place. I would like to see the Welsh Government investing in greater resource, whether it's town centre managers or the equivalent of developing a structured approach to ensuring that we do have these different policy areas brought together in order to deliver change in a particular community.
I would also like to ask you what work you are doing to ensure that the legislation we passed here at the end of the last Assembly—I think it was the built environment Act—is being delivered in order to ensure that some of the architecture that we want to protect in different parts of our communities, and also the built environment itself, is maintained and that that law is being used to its full extent. I'm unconvinced at the moment that it is being used to the full extend it should be in order to protect some of our most precious environments.
But I hope also—and I'll finish with this, Deputy Presiding Officer—that the Welsh Government will be able to ensure that we don't simply go through another process of investing in individual projects, but we actually invest in whole places.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Just to start where you finished, the way I'm approaching this and the way Welsh Government is approaching this is: it's not just about the projects, it's about the places and the people who make up those places. As we say, you talked about boosting the economy of the individual place, it's actually about the feel of it as well, and that sense that people feel their home town has gone downhill and that sense of civic pride that goes with it. I think that's why we need to approach it—you are absolutely right—in that holistic way, ensuring things are joined up and there are no unintended consequences elsewhere. As I said before, it's about actually being able to access towns, as well as actually having a nice town and a nice place to go to and having that experience there as well.
Specifically in terms of green infrastructure and looking at the benefits that brings. Yes, the bricks and mortar are important, but for too long that's all we've focused on. When we've looked at what is the public realm or the public space, it's often just been a bit of concrete or some paving stones or a few potted plants, rather than thinking about it in a much broader, more beneficial way. Although the green infrastructure fund is £5 million as a separate fund, I would encourage local authorities and others, when they are considering other regeneration projects, to use the criteria that we are going to look at in the future and actually take that into account as part of that as well. We want that to be part of those projects that come forward from local authorities and other stakeholders.
I recognise what's been said in here in terms of actually making sure there is that support for local authorities in that holistic approach, and a recognition that budgets are tight after a decade of austerity. But we're doing what we can within this. We're taking this forward now, with support from elsewhere across Government, and I'm really pleased that we're able to offer revenue funding to local authorities to start actually looking at what they're going to need to take this forward as well, whether that be master planning or digital support or community engagement.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister, and I welcome the Welsh Government's renewed commitment to our town centres. Empty shops are discouraging to potential shoppers and, when empty, can be vandalised, particularly late at night, making the town a no-go area. There are many empty shops in our town centres across Wales, and I therefore welcome the Welsh Government's town-centre-first approach.
As a former retailer, I take a particular interest in the revitalisation of our town centres with regular bus services to encourage shoppers, because lack of such services and the decreasing number of such services impacts negatively on the town. And whilst I accept that not all empty properties will be filled by retail, we have to try and encourage small independent retailers to set up shop, as it were.
A much higher proportion of revenue is recycled into the local community through small businesses than through their larger counterparts. Without small, independent retailers our high streets are at risk of becoming either empty shells or smaller versions of our out-of-town retail parks. And if we want to retain the character of our high streets, from Bridgend to Bangor, from Connah's Quay to Cowbridge, then we have to act now.
One in every eight retail unit is currently empty and the Welsh economy is lagging behind the other UK nations, and the outlook for the high street is not looking great. High street retailers are struggling with increasing rents and business rates, at the same time as facing increasing competition from online and out-of-town retailers, who have lower costs often, as well as free parking. Therefore, Deputy Minister, can you outline how you're working with the economy Minister and the finance Minister to address the issue of rising costs of doing business?
You have said in your statement that you will take firm and final action against owners of empty properties who refuse to co-operate. So, can you please outline what that action will look like? There can be multiple reasons, as we know, for empty properties, Deputy Minister. As the Welsh Government are taking a tough stance with private business owners, will you practice what you preach and bring back into use all those empty properties owned by the Welsh Government?
Finally, Deputy Minister, this initiative is the latest measure from your Government aimed at improving our town centres, so what assurances can you give my constituents that it won't be beset by the problems of earlier schemes, schemes that operated in isolation and were not subject to scrutiny? How can the people of my region be assured that towns like Neath, Pontardawe and Bridgendwill receive genuine support? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I think the Member won brownie points with Jack Sargeant when the mention of Connah's Quay got into your speech then. Just in terms of the points about the challenges that face our high streets, there are many similar challenges, not just in Wales, but right across the UK. You're absolutely right that we need to work across Government with the Minister for finance and the Minister for economy, because it's not in isolation, it needs to be done across the piece.
You talked about reassurances for residents and retailers in your constituency and your region. I think what is important is that the communities have a stake in any developments, which is why, as I've emphasised today, there's a need to actually have that community buy-in and the ideas to be driven from the grass roots up, rather than it's something that's done to people and places. So, it's how we can support local authorities and town and community councils to do that.
It's about actually identifying projects to come forward; it's for local authorities to try and identify projects, but I'd want to involve as many stakeholders as possible and to make sure that we have avenues for the community to have a say in that. Like I said, you can give resources or grants or loan funding, but to actually sustain the success of a community or a town centre that needs to have the involvement and the buy-in of not just retailers, but of residents, of town councillors, of everybody across the piece to make it successful well into the future.

Thank you.
I have a number of speakers still and I'm just looking at the time, so brevity now. We've had the main speakers from each of the parties, so if I could ask for brevity from the next set of speakers as well. Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I will start by thanking Caroline Jones for mentioning Connah's Quay. It's not often Members from south Wales mention towns in north Wales, so I do very much welcome that. [Laughter.]
Minister, the high street is changing, and if high streets like Buckley in my own constituency are to thrive, then we must ensure that the infrastructure allows them to do so. Firstly, as many people have said in the Chamber, it's about having a reliable and affordable way of getting there. So, the north Wales metro, for me, could play a key part in resolving this issue and creating a transport hub. In a town like Buckley, it would enable residents to access the high street whilst leaving the car behind, but it also has the ability to link up our rural communities to their nearest high streets and town centres.
Now, Minister, I have spoken to you a lot about the importance of banking infrastructure as well, and what that can mean for the high street, which we are still to see. We are losing so many banks at a rapid pace. The difference of a community bank and what that could mean to the people in these towns is huge. Free access to cash and face-to-face banking services keeps the money in the local economy. So, can I ask you, Minister: what conversations have you had with the Minister for Economy and Transport about creating transport hubs in towns like Buckley, but also creating community banks in towns like Buckley as well?
Finally, if I may—I know we're pressed for time here, Deputy Llywydd—but I would just like to speak in my role as chair of the cross-party group on beer and pubs in Wales. Now, we need to preserve our unique community spaces in towns. Elsewhere, planning rules restrict the turning of pubs into other commercial ventures like shops, for example, without the need for consent from the local authority. Now, I understand that the Welsh Government has proposals in place to amend the legislation in Wales, but will you stress the need for urgency to take this forward with your colleagues within the Welsh Government? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Jack Sargeant for his contribution and questions. Buckley is a town that I'm familiar with, not because I spent many of my younger years going to the Tivoli nightclub there, but because it's actually on the border of my own constituency and I have many friends and family who live there as well. Like many towns across Wales, Buckley has changed over the years, the way we shop has changed, the way we work and the way we live has changed.
But you're absolutely right in terms of the role that the north-east Wales metro can play and, actually, those vital infrastructure links in another sense, like banks and pharmacies. When we see some high streets that have managed to buck the trend slightly, they have managed to retain those things that bring in the footfall; bring people in and then drive them to perhaps independent businesses alongside that. So, yes, certainly I've had conversations with my colleague, the Minister for economy, about how we can use our collective leverage to ensure that we do bring services into communities like Buckley right across the country.
On the point you make as chair of the cross-party group on beer and pubs, which is quite a cushy role if I do say so myself, the consultation that we had previously recognised the role that pubs play not just as a focal point for the community, but as a hub, as we've seen in many places, perhaps in more rural towns, they actually host post offices now, and utilities and shops. I know that the Minister is committed to bringing forward that as soon as is legislatively possible.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Of course, I welcome any initiatives to ensure that there is investment in our town centres. I look forward to working with various organisations and town councils on Anglesey to see how we can take advantage of this—and working in Amlwch, for example, one of the places that has seen town-centre decline over the past few years.
But I just wanted to mention one specific idea in the town of Holyhead. It's important, of course, in planning our town centres, that we work across various departments and bring different public bodies together. There is a crisis in primary care in Holyhead at the moment; the health board has taken over two surgeries because of a shortage of doctors, and we do need to build a primary care service anew. Now, it's been drawn to my attention that the old Woolworths shop in the middle of Holyhead—the kind of site that could be ideal for opening a multidisciplinary health centre—would be perfect, because of the kind of building it is, in the town centre and there's parking available. It would then bring people in as footfall to the centre of Holyhead in a way that could cause economic regeneration. Now, other options are being considered, of course, but I have put forward that idea, as it was drawn to my attention, to the health board, and I hope that the local authority will take it seriously too. But, whilst not asking you to make a decision today, or to provide funding for it, do you agree with me in principle that that kind of initiative is one that truly ties in a number of elements that we need to do in order to have an impact on our town centres, and that it deserves detailed consideration?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you for the question.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Yes, I think, to make a decision on funding or—[Inaudible.]—if I don't make a decision that's perhaps potentially above my pay grade to make anyway. But, the point you make about actually how we make use of those sites—. As the nature of our town centres has changed and those big retailers are not there; they don't have the presence that they used to, it's how we make use of those sites and use them in a different way and repurpose them. And, I think, certainly, the points you raise would fit very well with the town-centre-first approach.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.
Minister, one aspect of our town centres that I think many people find very attractive is that distinctive offer that isn't just a replica of what you see in so many other town centres across the UK. So, rather than the big operators, the shops and stores that you see everywhere and distinctive local businesses, I think, are a great asset. I know that, in many areas, there's a wealth, actually, of local people, individuals and small businesses, who are involved in arts and crafts, in music and in providing local food produce. I think what would be really valuable would be to have mapping exercises where those individuals and small businesses are identified, brought together, and sometimes, premises identified, because, although individually, they might not be able to afford rents and premises, if they come together as a collective, or as a group, then that becomes feasible and possible.
But it does take somebody, Minister, to take the initiative to do that, and it may happen in some parts of Wales but not in others. So, in terms of Welsh Government showing a lead and taking a strategic approach, I wonder if there's anything in particular that Welsh Government might consider to ensure that sort of activity is structured and taken forward right across Wales.
And, one other thing, Minister: I know that in Caldicot, for example, in my patch in Newport East, one of the difficulties in taking forward policy around the town centre is identifying the private ownership of the shops, and then, engaging the owners. Very often, there's a lot of difficulty around that, and I wonder again whether there's anything that Welsh Government could do to provide the necessary support and help to deal with those issues.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his contribution. Working on the assumption—on your last point in terms of the difficulty in identifying owners—that you're referring perhaps to buildings or premises that perhaps have been left empty, or have not been rented out for some time, this is what we hope that this enforcement fighting fund, coupled with the industry expert that will be with us, going out across local authorities from next month, will actually help to address. We will bring in his expertise, share that, train up and resource up our local authority counterparts so that they have the confidence, the resource and the funding to be able to take that on. And, once one or two have been challenged, then, hopefully, that sends a message within a community that, actually, if you're not going to co-operate and if you're going to be difficult, then action will be taken. And I'm more than happy to share more details of that with the Member as this approach develops.
You're right about the distinctive offer of a town or a community, because that's what makes it the place that it is, and I think, like I said before, it's not about trying to replicate that one-size-fits-all, but what works for a particular place and a particular community. And the point you make in terms of how we could use this to perhaps create something like a hub or a mechanism to provide that platform for people, who, as you said, wouldn't be able to afford the premises on their own, and have the resource to do that, is a very valid one. I know that some local authorities—and where I was yesterday, in Rhyl, they're looking at how they can use the old Queen's Market building there to bring in independent producers to link up with the local colleges and actually give an opportunity to students there to be able to have pop-up stalls, to develop business plansand get that experience, and to have that kind of step up to enable them, hopefully, and help them succeed, going forward. So perhaps that's one where we can go away and do some work on—how we can share these ideas and share these best practices, to see them replicated in towns and places right across Wales where they would be appropriate and most welcome.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement here today. I've got three quick questions for you. Firstly, around your comments on the town-centre-first principle, in my constituency, in the Cynon Valley, I've seen some really positive examples, where the council has enhanced the public service offers available in our town centres. And I agree with your estimate of the benefits of doing this. As you mentioned, locating the Transport for Wales headquarters in Pontypridd is a great example of this principle in action. What I'd like to know is how the Welsh Government is engaging with other partners in the public sector, and, indeed, in private sector enterprises also, to encourage them into town centres.
Secondly, you mentioned the additional £10 million loan funding to bring empty and under-utilised buildings in town centres back into use. I think that's something that's really to be mentioned. Again, some excellent examples in Rhondda Cynon Taf of the local authority stepping in to deliver similar schemes. I'm thinking of the mixed-use Boot Hotel plans in Aberdare town centre, for example. So I wonder if you could give us a little more information, because I know this is something that my constituents would dearly like to see more of.
And my third and final question is, just in relation to your mention of the fund aimed at unlocking strategic stalled sites that could be used for housing. I'm wondering how that would tie in with the stalled sites fund that was announced around two years ago, and what, if any, would be any significant differences between the two.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Vikki, for your contributions and questions. The town-centre-first principle—you are right, actually; you can see that, in principle, the sentiment behind it is common sense, really. You can see the difference it makes, including on the site in Colwyn Bay too—the difference that they've seen there. When they created the council buildings, one of the conscious decisions they had was not only to move to a town centre location, but to not have a canteen. And that's not because they were being unnecessarily mean to the staff and to the employees—there's still a facility there to do your meals, and make your tea and coffee and things—but actually to try and encourage that engagement with the local community, to go out and to support local businesses as well, both before and after work. And also actually how the local authority now is perhaps thinking about other services they can bring into that space, to bring more people into the building and into town as well.
And right across the public sector, this has cross-Government support, and that doesn't just mean in terms of our own Government approach, in terms of our locations strategy, moving forward, but actually the work we do perhaps through the various health boards, through education, through local authorities, and the work with housing associations, and other bodies too. So, it's something that—the question, to go through the prism of town-centre-first, should be applied across the piece, moving forward.
And, as you rightly say RCT is a really good example, in terms of bringing properties back into use, and there are projects that have been run by the council as well. I know when I gave evidence to the committee about empty properties that that was cited as a very positive example, which I'd like to see replicated elsewhere. And I think, in terms of actually doing that, there is that money behind them right now, with the enforcement fund and the expertise, to actually make that happen more at pace and scale, right across the country. But also, I think what I'd say to your constituents, in terms of what we want to see there in place, I think it actually goes back to how we better and more involve communities in shaping that agenda too. So, as I said, I invite the Member, if you've got suggestions from your constituents on how best to do that in the future, then they'd be very welcome.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

7. The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Item 7 on the agenda this afternoon is the Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020. And I call on the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd to move the motion. Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM7240 Rebecca Evans
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales; in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves that the draft The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 is made in accordance with the draft laid in the Table Office on 7 January 2020.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: The Welsh Revenue Authority has successfully been collecting and managing landfill disposal tax for the last two years. It has worked closely with landfill site operators to support them in the administration of the tax, and has established a strong working relationship with Natural Resources Wales. So far, in the first two quarters of this financial year, tax assessed is £21 million and accounts for just over 530,000 tonnes of waste.
I will now talk to the Landfill Disposals Tax(Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020, which relate to setting the 2021 tax rates for landfill disposals tax. These regulations set the standard, lower and unauthorised disposal rates for landfill disposals tax, which, subject to the outcome of today’s debate, will apply to taxable disposals made on or after 1 April.
In developing these regulations, consideration has been given to how the rates being set support the objective of reducing waste sent to landfill. A reduction in LDT rates may encourage greater landfill disposals in Wales, which is not consistent with the Welsh Government’s aim to reduce landfill disposals. Increasing rates might incentivise unauthorised disposals of waste. These regulations maintain an appropriate cost to the disposal of waste to landfill sites to incentivise more environmentally sensitive activities, such as the reduction and recycling of waste.
In accordance with the announcement of the draft budget in December, the standard and lower rates for landfill disposals tax will increase in line with the consumer price index. This approach also ensures that the rate remains consistent with the UK tax for the next financial year, providing the stability that businesses have so clearly told us they need.
By setting the same tax rate as the UK Government, public services in Wales will continue to benefit from tax revenue, while ensuring that the risk of movement of waste across the border is reduced. The standard rate will be increased to £94.15 per tonne and the lower rate will be £3 per tonne. The unauthorised rate will be set at 150 per cent of the standard rate, which seeks to encourage illegal operators to take their waste to an authorised landfill site and to sort their waste for onward recovery, reuse and recycling in order to reduce the amount of waste landfilled. The unauthorised rate will be £141.20. So, I ask the Members for their support for these regulations this afternoon.

Thank you. Can I call on Dai Lloyd to speak on behalf of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee? Dai.

Dai Lloyd AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Yes, these are the Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 before us. We laid our report in respect of these regulations before the Assembly—indeed, the Senedd—on 21 January. Our report raised one small but important merits point under Standing Order 21.3(i).
The regulations will amend the standard rate, the lower rate and the unauthorised disposals rate for landfill disposals tax that will apply to taxable disposals made on or after 1 April 2020 in Wales. I hope that you're all following me. [Laughter.]
In accordance with section 25 of the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act 2016, the Welsh Revenue Authority must pay the collected taxes into the Welsh consolidated fund. As a provisional or made-affirmative instrument, the regulations were signed into law on 6 January 2020, but must be approved by the Assembly in order for the regulations to continue to have effect. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Minister to reply.

Rebecca Evans AC: I will just take the opportunity to thank the Chair and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their work in scrutinising this piece of legislation.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate: Stage 4 of the Children (Abolition of the Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

We now move to item 8 on the agenda this afternoon, which is a debate on Stage 4 of the Children (Abolition of the Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to move that motion, Julie Morgan.

Motion NDM7246 Julie Morgan
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:
Approves the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch, and opening this Stage 4 debate is a huge privilege. I believe that we should be proud that our nation has taken forward this important reform to ensure that children have the same protection from physical punishment as adults.
Like me, many in this Chamber, past and present, from different parties, and many stakeholders across many different sectors, including those who I know are here in the gallery tonight, have campaigned long and hard for this legislation over many years—decades in fact. I believe I've been campaigning for 20 years for it with many others.
So, your perseverance has helped bring Wales one step closer to affording children the right to be protected from all forms of physical punishment. And I want to thank all those organisations and all those individuals here in the Chamber, and past Members of this Assembly, for what they have done. And I would also like to thank the Children's Commissioner for Wales for her leadership on this issue, including on the international stage. And so, this shows what can be achieved when we work together, putting children's rights at the forefront.

Julie Morgan AC: Many people of an older generation will recall being physically punished both by parents at home and by teachers at school. But things have changed, and this Bill is not about judging the actions or decisions of parents in the past, whose parenting decisions were based on the information and social norms prevalent then. Certainly, there is more research, professional advice and psychological insight available to today's parents, helping them raise children without resorting to physical punishment.
So, the overarching aim of this Bill is to help protect children's rights. Removing the defence of reasonable punishment brings Wales in line with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which is central to our approach to give children the best start in life, and to help them achieve their potential. It'll provide much-need clarity to parents and the professionals who work with families. It will eliminate the current potential for confusion and ambiguity in how we expect children to be treated. And front-line professionals have said repeatedly that this clarity will improve their ability to protect children living in Wales.
But, clearly, two things will be of critical importance to ensure the Bill benefits children and their families: firstly, making sure that everyone is aware that the law has changed; and, secondly, support for parents to adopt positive parenting styles. And as you know, I am absolutely committed to these important activities. Subject to the passage of the Bill through this final stage and to Royal Assent being granted, the awareness raising will begin in the spring and continue for a number of years after the law changes. And as with our parenting support provision, we will be providing parents with information in a number of different formats to suit a range of needs.
During the passage of this Bill, we gathered valuable evidence that helped to inform our thinking, not only in the development of the legislation, but also in considering its impact and implementation. A great many people have contributed their time, energy and knowledge, and I thank them sincerely. I'd like to acknowledge the help and support from the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, social services, education and health professionals, and others who have tirelessly worked with us over this Assembly term. And I thank them in advance for their ongoing support, including through our implementation groups, to ensure that this law will be implemented in the most practical and pragmatic way. And I want to particularly thank all the Welsh Government officials who have worked tirelessly on the Bill—they could not have done more.
I'm grateful to all Members who've contributed to the scrutiny of this Bill, and to Huw Irranca-Davies for his early involvement with the Bill, and to Carl Sargeant, for the role they both played in the Bill's development. And let me pay tribute to the three committees for their support and challenge. The Children, Young People and Education Committee: under Chair, Lynne Neagle, their detailed and thorough scrutiny of the Bill gave voice to many different views, including from children and young people. The committee's Stage 1 report recommendations led to Government amendments and identified areas that could be strengthened at Stages 2 and 3. One such area was providing certainty around the date the law will change, and to provide for a period of two years between Royal Assent and commencement. My Stage 2 amendment secures sufficient time for partner organisations to be ready for the change in the law and for the awareness-raising campaign. I'd like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders and Suzy Davies for a constructive discussion following Stage 2. As a result, the Bill now includes a provision strengthening the post-implementation review.
I want to reassure Members concerned about the impact of this Bill that we have already made significant progress in preparing for implementation. We have been, and will continue to work in collaboration with all key partners through our strategic implementation group, which is up and running with enthusiastic participants and associated task and finish groups.And I will continue to update the Senedd on this work.
This is a historic moment in Welsh history. Our example is already encouraging people worldwide who wish to end the physical punishment of children. I commend this Bill to the Senedd.

Thank you. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.I am grateful that I have the opportunity to speak in the final stage of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.
This Bill is a free vote among the Welsh Conservative group, and I'd certainly like to reassure Members that, as spokesperson, I have listened to all sides of the debate, all evidence laid before the committee, and all of the Deputy Minister’s own statements on this issue. I was pleased to see engagement throughout the Bill’s progress, as well as some compromise from the Deputy Minister at Stage 3, which led to our amendments on reporting standards being accepted as part of this Bill.
Nevertheless, from my own perspective, I remain still unconvinced that removing the defence of reasonable punishment is right or fair for Wales. As I have said throughout the Bill’s progress, we have laws and systems already in place to protect the rights of the child, and we could have considered other options to change the behaviour of parents, such as civil liability.
With this Bill, the state is now stepping into the private lives of families, and through the involvement of the police and social services to enforce the smacking ban, this will potentially have far-reaching consequences for us all. Exposing parents to criminal liability for smacking their children should be the last resort of a Government, not the first.
It is the short-term thinking of this Government behind a long-term issue that concerns me the most. Today, this Welsh Parliament has been left the choice of passing a Bill that didn't have an in-depth costing for our public services from the start, and we now find out, from a letter that I've acquired, which is from the Chair of the Finance Committee, Llyr Gruffydd, of their concerns that since the explanatory memorandum the Bill has increased from a range of between £2.3 million and £3.7 million, to £6.2 million and £7.9 million. The revised regulatory impact assessment provides a total cost of awareness-raising activities of £2.8 million, previously in a range of £1.3 million; information on out-of-court disposal schemes, not originally costed, is now estimated to cost between £810,000 and £2.5 million; costs for staff working in a safeguarding role, who will need to familiarise themselves with new guidance, has been included—£882,000; costs of the task and finish implementation group, £620,000; and costs of the post-implementation review, £100,000. And it goes on. This is a letter that has been signed by a committee in this Assembly—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Would you take an intervention—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, of course.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: —given that you've referred to a letter with my name on it? In fairness to members of the committee, those figures are figures that were requested by the committee, and the Government, in sincerity, provided those figures. There is a disparity between what was initially tabled, and what subsequently was before us, but, of course, that is the whole point of having a scrutiny process. It shows that it does work, and, of course, Members today can vote for or against based on the evidence that the Government, in fairness, has brought forward.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you.
So, here we have the passing of a Bill that didn't have an in-depth costing for public services from the start, and that doesn't give us complete confidence in how the Bill’s consequences will be communicated to parents and children, and one that doesn't give us, a devolved Parliament, any control over how its enforcement will be applied by two reserved institutions—the Crown Prosecution Service and the police.
I say again that there must be a commitment from the Government to continually place this at the forefront of parents and the public's minds. Despite the Deputy Minister’s clear commitment to have a long awareness campaign, if we are going to use the example of New Zealand as a reason to introduce the Bill, we should also heed the warning signs coming from that country.
As I mentioned last week, 13 years after their smacking ban, a survey found that almost 40 per cent of mothers would still smack their child, and 70 per cent would not report a parent if they witnessed a parent smacking their child on the backside or the hand. So, this may not even have as much of an impact as you had intended. Furthermore, there has been a decline in discipline in New Zealand, with 15 per cent of parents with young children saying they were aware of a family that had been negatively affected by the law, and 17 per cent said it had made them less confident as a parent. We cannot allow this to be repeated in Wales.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I agree entirely with the Finance Committee's concerns. And as I said during the passage of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill last year, this Parliament's concerns should not be continually dismissed by the Welsh Government, and we would take no more.
Deputy Minister, as I said last week, it is your duty to take the Welsh public along with you, rather than to create an atmosphere of hostility and resistance. I don't think this has been achieved yet, but I also do know you have enough votes for the Bill to pass. As I said to the former Deputy Minister for Children and Social Services last year, it is also for you to convince your own constituents that this was the right course of action to take and that you have listened to scrutiny. I don't believe that to be the case.

Will you wind up, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes. Ultimately, your constituents, our families and the voters will be the judges of that.
I will promise the Welsh public this today: my colleagues and I will be closely monitoring this situation in the years to come, and if this Bill doesn't work, if this places law-abiding parents at a disadvantage, if this places untold pressure on already overstretched social services, and if this places more children in looked-after care, we will listen to of the people of Wales, and I personally—

Can you wind up, please?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —will seek to reverse the ramifications of this dreadful legislation. Diolch yn fawr.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I rise to support this legislation today with a happy heart, and I think that the work of the campaigners, some of whom, as the Deputy Minister said, are here, has finally paid off. I think for those of us who've been fighting this battle for a very long time, this will be a happy day for us, a happy day for Welsh families, and most importantly a happy day for Welsh children.
I don't wish to detain this Chamber for a long time, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I do feel that I need to respond to some of the points that Janet Finch-Saunders has made. In my opinion, the Deputy Minister and the Welsh Government have bent over backwards to accommodate people's concerns. There are some of us here—[Interruption.] I will quite happily take an intervention from Janet Finch-Saunders, but I find it very difficult to deal with remarks made from a sedentary position. If you wish to intervene—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I appreciate that. If I could just make the point clear: we did put 11 amendments in; only two really were considered.

Helen Mary Jones AC: It is one thing, I think, to have a process of scrutiny—it is, of course, the Government's right not to accept opposition amendments. I'm surprised that Janet Finch-Saunders appears to be surprised by that.
In my opinion, the Deputy Minister has bent over backwards. So, to a certain extent, I disagree with her. I am disappointed that the children of Wales will not be protected as from tonight—that we will wait two years—but I understand why she's made that decision: she's made that decision to deal with the genuine concerns around implementation.
Janet Finch-Saunders said that this is a first resort. This is not a first resort—we've been debating this in this place for the best part of 20 years. We would have passed this legislation—

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Helen Mary Jones AC: No, I'm sorry, Darren, I don't have time. I might in a moment.
We passed this in principle 18 years ago, so any suggestion that the Welsh Government is rushing this—. Again, I feel—I'm rather disappointed that it's taken so long. Janet Finch-Saunders again mentions the New Zealand survey, which I pointed out last week was nothing more than a survey, and it was bought and paid for by the very campaign that had campaigned against that in the first place. So, that is not research, That is not scientific legislation.
Now, I want to address those two groups of people who I think are concerned about this legalisation, and the first people I want to talk to are those who really have some genuine concerns around the implementation. And to them, I will say: it will be all right. Fifty-eight nations have done this already. This is the new normal.
It began in 1979 with Sweden. None of those countries have seen those things that people are concerned about. None of them have seen kind and caring parents demonised. None of them have seen criminal justice systems overwhelmed. It simply hasn't happened. Fifty-eight nations, Scotland most recently, and it's a matter of sorrow to me that Wales wasn't there before them.
Today we will become the fifty-ninth, but to those with genuine concerns, I say, 'Look at the experience; look at what has happened.' Essentially, what has happened is that good parenting has been promoted in those nations. In those nations where this has been in operation for a very long time—Sweden is the example—it has actually led to a de-escalation of violence in families, of serious violence in families.
So, today we move to give our children their article 19 rights, their right to be protected from violence. As we do this, I want to focus on those who oppose this legislation from the point of view of intrusion into family life. Well, you know, we intrude into family life on a regular basis. There was a time when it was lawful in this nation for a man to beat his wife with a stick so long as it was no thicker than his thumb. I do not believe that children are the property of their parents. We have a fundamental, philosophical difference here. Children do not belong to their parents. They are citizens in their own right.
The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child places upon us all a duty to support them in their growth and in their development. Today we as a nation will exercise that right. We will give them at last—at last—equal protection against violence under the law. I am looking forward to this and I commend this legislation to this Chamber, but more importantly to this nation.

Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to make a brief contribution to this debate. This is a landmark day for children in Wales and I am really pleased that we have got here after all this time. I think it is very important to recognise the role that the Deputy Minister has played on this issue for 20 years in two different Parliaments. So, thank you, Deputy Minister, for your tremendous persistence and determination, which has played such an important part in getting us here today.
I also wanted to thank everyone who gave evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee: to all the parents from both sides of the debate, who shared their views courageously, thoughtfully and openly with the committee; the wide range of professionals from education, a range of health professionals, the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, social services, all who told us without exception that this Bill would make it easier for them to protect children in Wales; the Youth Parliament who themselves, in an historic move, took a vote and supported this legislation—thanks to them for that; and I'd like to thank the rest of the committee and, very importantly, Llinos Madeley, our clerk, and Sian Thomas, our head of research, who had to marshal a phenomenal amount of evidence into the huge tome that became our Stage 1 report. I think we are blessed as a committee to have such brilliant support.
But, above all for the committee, this was a fundamental children's rights issue and I am absolutely delighted that, today, we will ensure that those children's rights are made a reality in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Reckless AC: This debate should be about more than whether it is morally right to smack a child or whether it is good parenting ever to use physical chastisement. If it were just about that, then my view is that it is not and, for my own children, I have not smacked them and I hope to bring them up without ever physically chastising them. But that is not sufficient, that view, to vote for this legislation because there is a further step: is it right to go from one's own personal moral view about this to saying, 'That is a view that we shall use our powers here to impose on the rest of society'? I'm not convinced that we're at this point. The Deputy Minister rightly spoke about social norms, and I wouldn't want to put any emphasis on any particular poll or any particular survey, but I'm concerned that those changes in society—smacking and corporal punishment, certainly as we used to see, are not the social norms they were. But I fear that there are still too many people, too large a group of parents who take a different view of this to that which I personally take. And for that reason, I think this should remain, for now at least, an issue determined by parents, within marriages, within relationships, within families. I say that from a pragmatic more than a principled view. There may come a time when the changes in social norms are such that it may be appropriate to legislate, that something becomes so transgressive of social norms that there is legislation and there is criminalisation, but I don't believe that that time is yet, simply because there are too many loving families who still use physical chastisement because their views on the matter are different from mine. And I—

Joyce Watson AC: Will you take an intervention?

Mark Reckless AC: I will take an intervention.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. I thank you for taking the intervention. I hear what you say, but I clearly don't agree with it. Because if we went along the trajectory that you're going on, it seems to me that what you're saying is that the personal is not political, and that, then, in turn, would clearly mean that all the legislation that we've had to protect people within their families from whatever form of abuse it might be—domestic abuse, incest et cetera—would never have happened, because, if I'm understanding you quite clearly, society wasn't yet ready for the changes.

Mark Reckless AC: I don't think you are understanding me correctly, because I do accept that the personal can be political and I do think that some behaviours are so transgressive of social norms that there is justification for legislation and in some cases, criminalisation. I'm just saying that I'm not convinced that our society is yet there in respect of this issue, because I think there are so many parents and families who are loving, good parents in other ways, who take a different view from you and me on this matter, and that really is the core point why I don't think we should legislate to make what happens to be a majority—a substantial majority—in this Chamber, in terms of personal morality or view about this issue, into the law of the land, with criminal penalties, when such a higher proportion of the population, relative to us, take a contrary view.
I've thought about this carefully and I've listened to powerful speeches made by Helen Mary and others and I compliment the Deputy Minister on how she has taken the legislation through and recognise what she has done over a long time in terms of her campaigning. I just worry for those that we potentially criminalise through this. I worry that this will be used when people talk about custody and divorce proceedings. I worry—I don't want to scaremonger, and I don't think, or at least I hope that people are not going to see children taken into care just because a parent is seen smacking them in public, but I fear that, in some cases, it will weigh in the balance and will mean that some children are taken into care who might not otherwise be, and given the woeful record of the state, as a parent, I worry that that may not be in the best interests of those children. For me, it is a matter of balance. I'm not yet convinced that the balance is such that we should pass this legislation.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate? Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank Members for their thoughtful and considered responses. I will just pick up a few of the points in the very brief time period I've got.
I thank Llyr for his intervention, because, as the Finance Committee acknowledge in their letter, many of the additional costs in the latest explanatory memorandum are as a result of recommendations from his committee, so we were listening to his committee. And, Janet, as far as I'm aware, no other nation has done as much to identify the potential impact or costs before legislating to prohibit physical punishment of children. Many of our near neighbours have been involved in promoting this legislation. Ireland introduced it on an amendment with no preparation at all. We have spent an extensive amount of time preparing for this legislation.
The Bill provides clarity for parents, professionals and the public, and from the commencement date, physical punishment of a child in Wales will no longer be acceptable under any circumstances. I think it's an interesting point that 58 per cent of the Welsh public already think that this is the law, and picking up on what Mark Reckless has said, 81 per cent of young parents with young children think that it is not necessary to physically punish a child. I believe that the public moodis changing. All the research that the Welsh Government has done has shown a distinct change in mood. Lynne Neagle mentioned how the Youth Parliament voted. We are moving that way and we are going with the times, but we must be sensitive, as Mark Reckless has said, to the minority who still do use physical punishment.
But, as I've said, we're going to give support to parents, we're going to give advice, we're going to give information. I don't think we could be doing more to carefully prepare, and all the agencies are working with us. We've got a major implementation group, we've got subgroups—we've got a subgroup on diversion, we've got one on parenting support—and they're working with this very enthusiastically, because this is something that many people have wanted for many years. Because they do see it as an impediment to being able to advise parents, work with parents. Those front-line professionals, the health visitors, the midwives, people who are working with parents right from the beginning, they want to be clear what they can say and, if we do this, it will make it clear. And just remember, we did talk about domestic abuse in this way a very short time ago.
So, let's sign into Welsh law this important bit of legislation, which will help to protect the rights of our children in Wales now and in the future. Let's continue to have the courage to do the right thing by the children of this country. So, I urge all Members to support the Children (Abolition of the Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill and take another momentous step forward in protecting children's rights in Wales.

Thank you. In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C a recorded vote must be taken on a Stage 4 motion, and so I defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We have reached voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I intend to now proceed to the electronic vote. No. All right, okay.

9. Voting Time

So, we move to the vote on Stage 4 of the Children (Abolition of the Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Julie Morgan. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 36, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. [Applause.]

NDM7246 - Debate: Stage 4 of the Children (Abolition of the Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill: For: 36, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that brings today's proceedings to a close. [Applause.] And that's the day's proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 19:03.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Rhun ap Iorwerth: What conditions does the Welsh Government place on funding it provides for businesses in order to protect workers' rights?

Mark Drakeford: Our economic contract now underpins funding provided to businesses in Wales. Each contract reflects the particular circumstances of each business. Protection of workers' rights forms part of each contract negotiation.

Joyce Watson: How is the Welsh Government improving rail connectivity in Mid and West Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government works with Network Rail to improve track and signalling in Mid and West Wales. Transport for Wales will improve connectivity through additional services, greater frequency of services, new dedicated rolling stock and station upgrades in the area.

Vikki Howells: Will the First Minister outline the Welsh Government's priorities for decarbonising homes in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Our immediate priorities include tough new energy standards for new homes by revising Part L of the building regulations; further improving energy efficiency in existing social homes and helping to support the foundational economy; and tackling the risk of overheating in our homes under our energy efficiency building regulations review.

Jenny Rathbone: What assessment has the First Minister made of the opportunities for continuing to grow the Welsh food and drink industry following its success in achieving sales of nearly £7.5 billion this year?

Mark Drakeford: Wales's food and drink sector has never been in better health, with growth in the UK and export markets, and a rising reputation. We are now working with the Food and Drink Wales Industry Board on a new strategic plan, building on widely supported proposals on which consultation took place last year.

Sian Gwenllian: Does the Welsh Government have any plans to ensure that every pupil in Wales learns the history and stories of Wales?

Mark Drakeford: It is essential that all children across Wales have the opportunity to learn about the diverse history of our nation, and as such, the local and national contexts are a golden thread, which will run through every aspect of the curriculum.